Why Most Leaders Fail (And How to Last in the Long Run) with Andy Stanley

It is almost a a visceral reaction for me to resist those kinds of people because I've seen what can happen. He didn't grow up like me. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, we have got Andy Stanley back on the podcast and man, I love this conversation. We talked about the dangerous side of leadership. It's a wonderful dangerous gift. Uh we talked about being special, about letting influence go to your head, about leaders who cultivate a court. In other words, a bunch of insiders who kind of shield them and who need the leader more than the leader needs them and how that leads to moral failure. How we've seen that happen over and over again. And as you probably know by now, well, there's big news. Andy is stepping back as the lead pastor, retiring, I guess you could say, as a lead pastor of North Point Community Church and North Point Ministries. He and I talked about that.

This was filmed before that was public knowledge. And I just wish him all the best. I'm very excited for him and am excited to see what he continues to do. Uh, but North Point is in great hands under Joel Thomas' leadership. So, as you know, Andy is a communicator, leader, author, and pastor, founding North Point Ministries in Atlanta in 1995. North Point Ministries includes eight large churches in the Atlanta area, as well as a network of 230 churches around the globe, serving over 200,000 people weekly. For nearly two decades, the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, which I believe will continue, has equipped leaders with practical, actionable insights and has been recognized as a top leadership forecast by outlets including Forbes. He's authored more than 20 books. I think that this one, what great leaders do, is his best, and he is considered one of the most influential pastors and leaders in America. So, this isn't a retrospective because we recorded this before it was public. But man, you are not going to be disappointed as Andy looks back over 40 years of what he has learned about leadership and why it's so dangerous for so many of us. Let's go to that conversation which we filmed live at North Point. Andy, it's uh great to have you on the podcast and great to be at North Point. Thank you so much for >> Hey, you you traveled. You you you you made this really easy. So, and it's good to see you again because we haven't seen

each other in a minute. So, >> yeah. Yeah, it's really good to hang out. I'll tell you, I love your book, What Great Leaders Do. I told you I think it's >> my favorite one that you've ever written. Um because because it's just I' I've tracked with you now for over 20 years and there are insights I hadn't heard. There are things I didn't know. >> Maybe a few stories. >> A few stories I haven't heard. Exactly. Your kids are like, "We've heard these all." Yeah. Uh-huh. That's what kids are for. They just tell you. Uh, but you know, the the first thing that struck me was I did not know that you didn't want to become a leader. >> I mean, you grew up around leaders, right? >> But you didn't want to become one. Why not? >> Well, I think you're referring I I opened the book with a story about me and Louis Gigglio when we were young. And I I say we were the disruptors in our youth group, which is true. and a woman who was our youth director, Mary Gillerstat. True story, she just celebrated her 100th birthday not too long ago. I posted a picture of me and Louis and Mary Gillerstat when she turned 100. She was the youth director and she one one day after something at church. We had just disrupted. We were probably in eighth grade. I've known Louis since sixth grade. And she said um she sat us down and she looked at us.

She said, "You boys are leaders." And then she went on and on how we were disrupting and we needed to be good influences and examples. You boys are leaders. And I remember thinking, well, I don't want to be a leader because that means I have to behave. That means I can't, you know, you know, to me it just it just struck me as who would want to don't call me I don't want to be a leader. Um, but that's the first time anyone ever associated me with leadership. And again, I'm in probably 8th or maybe ninth grade. And I still remember that. So, you know, the push back on leadership wasn't so much I didn't want to be a leader. I didn't want to be a leader then and be responsible and have to be a role model and all that stuff, but who does, you know, in middle school anyway. So, and then I I I don't know about you, but growing up in church environment, I never heard anyone ever talk about leadership. In fact, it wasn't until I went to a a conference many many years later um where I first heard somebody talk about leadership and as it relates to pastoral ministry or church leaders or or the church and it lit me up. I I had been leading but I never really I'd never read a book on leadership.

>> So um as soon as somebody introduced the category it's like oh this is this is what I've been doing and then I got interested and then found out there are books written on this. There are articles written on this. This is like a science, you know, because everything was pretty much management in those days, but not so much leadership. So kind of management like under Ducker, people like that. >> Everything was management. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So you have a you weigh in on the eternal debate. Are leaders born or made? And you have a point of view on that. What's your point of view? >> Yeah. And it's not the uh the most popular one. And it's not scientific. It's just observation. I think people of course anybody can get better at anything. I can become a better singer but you still don't want to give me a microphone to sing, right? >> Um I think there are people who are they just have a natural innate leadership gear. I mean sometimes people call think about it in terms of giftedness or but it's and so giftedness is fine but it I think of it as a gear. They just have a leadership gear. People are going to follow them. they they can't help but turn around and see that people are following. You know, two people get up, say the same thing about the same thing.

People yawn with this person and then people applaud and and they just, hey, if you're going to do that, I want to go with you. So, I do think again, everybody can become a better leader, but I just think history bears out and I think our experience bears out. There are people who have a leadership gear. So when I wrote the book, I really and I I wrote this book to people who have a leadership gear. So early on, I'm like, if this is you, this book is for you. And everybody can become a better leader, but if you are one of those people that you can't help yourself, but you turn around, people want to be a part of what you're doing, um, hey, you're stuck with it, and now you've got to be responsible with it, which is, you know, another big part of this book. So, you probably won't remember this, but one of the first times I ever did a big talk in the United States was right here in this room in 2006, 20 years ago. And I was really nervous. I worked on my talk for months. You were in the front row. You were kind enough to fly my wife and boys down. And >> I remember getting up here, it's kind of like, okay, here it is. as I'm playing in the Super Bowl, you know, for a obscure pastor from Canada to be invited to speak at a North Point event was really a big deal for me. And afterwards, I came down and I saw you and I asked you for feedback.

And I don't think you'll remember what you said, but I remember. You said within the first minute, I could tell you were a leader and I was going to follow you wherever you took me over those 40 minutes. >> Yep. When you see someone, first of all, that was really affirming for me. And you didn't give me any other feedback. It was just I was just going to follow you no matter where you went. >> What makes you notice that someone's a leader? If you remember, what did you see in me or what do you see in other leaders that make you go, "Yep, this is I don't know that I have a good answer to the question, but you're pointing out something that's so true." I remember the first time I heard Craig Rochelle speak and it it was on a specific it was at a technology conference and we were supposed to I I don't even I don't know why I was there. We both did a thing. I'd never met Craig before. Yeah. I'd heard him I'd heard him preach sermons but I'd never met Craig. And I remember sitting there thinking >> he's a leader. And there is something about when the the the ability to speak publicly persuasively um is is married to the leadership gift when that person is speaking you are moved beyond the content and that's why I think it's a gear that's why I think that it's there's it's internal so you know to your point as you were I don't remember your content but you struck me as somebody who wasn't you weren't just up here presenting content you were a leader who was presenting content which meant okay let's well let's let's do

something with that and I I think most people can can sense that they may not have words for it or language for it but you just know the difference between somebody who's covering the material even good material and somebody who has a leadership gear who is presenting material and again it's it's two it's two different gifts or gears but when they're married it's a powerful and it's a it can a dangerous thing because people with a leadership gear they're some people are going to follow them regardless of where they go and again that's where you know how how responsible we choose to be with the gift is important >> well your point really got me because I I you know you have those moments where you kind of see everything through your eyes and most people these days say no you can learn leadership etc >> and you can you can yeah >> but what happens is >> but but I'll interrupt >> so what happens >> well you can learn leadership but I've never heard a leader who's accomplished anything significant talk about when they learned to lead ever.

>> They'd never say, you know, I I knew I was not a leader and then I read a book and became a leader. I was not a leader and then I be no, it was in them. You know, it started when they were, you know, people recognized it when they were 13 and 14 and 15. They, you know, all the boys got together, all the girls got together, but there was that one girl, that one boy. They they just led. They weren't trying to lead. They could not help themselves but lead. So it's it's it's in there. >> Did you Sorry. >> No, no, no. When did people first start following you? Like when did you realize, oh, I got a little bit of traction here? Cuz you say, right, it's a classic definition. How do you know if you're people are following? >> My youth group leader saw it in me and Louie when we were in middle school and she said, "You boys are leaders." And we're like, >> so she saw it, but what did she see? >> I don't know. Influence. I mean, influence and the fact that, you know, people looked in our direction, mimicked us, copied us. If we did bad, they did bad. If we did good, they did good, right? You know, it's like all the chickens, you know, running from one side of the hen house, you know, to the yard to the other.

>> And we weren't trying. But that's the point is leaders don't have to try, right? Yeah. Yeah, >> they just live their lives and get ideas and people follow. So the, you know, the other implication with this, we can get to this later, is it is foolish to be arrogant about one's leadership gift or gear because you did not create it. You may have worked on it, but you were born with it. And why in the world would somebody be arrogant about something they had no control over? They were just gifted it. So it's a stewardship and of course as a Christian >> you know all of our gifts I feel like you know we feel like are stewards or it's a stewardship. So the question is I've been given this gift. What am I going to do with it? So and that's why I I finally decided to write this book. This is a book to leaders. This is a book to men and women who have a leadership gear. They're going to do it anyway. I just decided I would try to help. >> I have a similar thing with communicators. Uh, and you know, I haven't been a lead pastor for 11 years, but when we've been interviewing at our church, uh, I'll sometimes see videos and Jeff, my successor, will ask me, you know, what do you think? And I can usually tell in about 8 to 10 seconds whether that person has a communication gift.

>> Whether sometimes you have somebody who's got a gift >> but really needs development of the skill set. Y >> but sometimes you see somebody as you you hint at it in the book with all the skills but the core gifting isn't there. >> Yeah. >> So they're communicating. >> Y >> and they're doing everything right, but it's not >> compelling. It's not working. It's not working. >> Well, you know, we're sitting on this stage. >> Yeah. >> My I have uh three kids. My youngest is my daughter. >> I was sitting right there front and center for my mom's funeral. >> So, we were celebrating my mom's life. I'm sitting there with my dad and and you our kids and some grandkids. And so when we put the funeral celebration together, we wanted let's have two grandkids talk about Mimi. So my daughter walks up on the stage. She was I guess middle school. I mean she was young and she walked up to that microphone and I remember sitting here looking up and going, "Oh my goodness, she has this gift." It was and it was it was at my mom's funeral, but she had poise. She was prepared. It was persuasive. It was funny. You could tell it just flowed out of her. There were no notes. And that's the first time I recognized my daughter has a communication gift. And sure enough, she's continued to develop it.

But to your point, >> when you experience it, you just kind of know and everybody can get better. Mhm. >> But, you know, finding our lane, um, our giftedness and then spending as much time as we can working on that. That's really the key to success for most people anyway. So, >> so for people who are watching right now, listening and wondering, well, do I actually have the leadership gift? What are some markers you'd suggest? Like, what if they got the skills but >> is anybody following? >> Yeah. >> Is do people want to follow? Do people lean in? Um, and again, it's not about being super charismatic. We both know leaders who are not charismatic. They're mildmannered. I I have a friend I have to lean in to even hear him talk. He almost at times I'm like, are you doing this on purpose to just get us but you know, you kind of hang on every word and if he has an idea, you just think that's a good idea. We should do that. >> So, um, it's not a personality thing. It is it's just a gear. Part of it is confidence. Um, part of it is clarity.

Part of it is they're thinking what's next? Where are we going? Here's where I'm going. I'm going. You might as well come. Do you want to come with me? There's just it's just it's just built in. So, >> do you agree with that? I mean, I don't know. >> I do. I do. And again, it's skill set versus core gifting. I've seen leaders, it's like you need a horse's bridal. Like, you need you need to be reigned in or held back >> cuz you're going to destroy everything. And then there are other people who have read the books, gone to the conferences, maybe even got the degree, whatever. And yet there's something missing. And I think over time, like it, you know, my people saw a leadership gift in me when I was young, when I was a teenager. Uh my dad still tells this story of and it's a bit of a communication thing, too. But I I went to camp and I got sponsored or something like that. So, I had to give a report to the church in the church basement on a Sunday night. I was >> You were And you were how old?

>> I'm 12. >> Oh, wow. >> So, I'm the second speaker. And the girl who got up ahead of me, who I don't remember who it was, uh took everything I was going to say. >> Oh. >> And I leaned over to my dad and I said, "She just said everything I wanted to say." And my dad goes, "What are you going to do?" Said, "I don't know." And I have no memory of this. This is only for my dad, but I got apparently I got up there and I just made something up for 15 minutes and >> it was compelling and my dad still talks about it to this day. And he knew he knew. >> He knew. >> Yeah. I had my 12-year-old son who came up with something between the chair, you know, where he was seated in the stage. And it was and and you said the word it was compelling. It wasn't just information. It was compelling. And I think that's a characteristic of somebody who has a leadership gear and a communication gear. So, Yeah, but leadership is also dangerous because sometimes it comes with charisma and we unfortunately have seen so many people in our lifetime who didn't know what to do with the dangerous side of the gift. So you really explore that in the book. Do you want to talk about what is so dangerous >> about having that gift? So literally my title before this title was leadership the wonderful dangerous gift.

>> That was going to be the subtitle. And then I went from wondrous to dangerous cuz wondrous dangerous you know I'm all into rhetoric you know and then I just punted on the whole thing. But I talk about that early in the book because as as I said if a person has leadership gear people are going to follow them even in bad directions. And this is why all of us wonder you know when something goes a company falls apart uh an organization falls apart because of the leadership and we think how were they able to accomplish so much with such little character with with um so much deceit or whatever it was that finally came to the surface. And the answer is because they're a leader and people follow leaders. They just do. So for the for the young person, the 20some year old, 30ome year old, the teenager who realizes, oh, every time I turn around there, people are following me. You have the gift. It's a stewardship, but it is it is literally the most dangerous gift.

You think about all the atrocities that have happened historically, 100% of them there was a leader. It was a man. They were people followed them in some cases followed them into oblivion. I this is kind of hyperbole but Adolf Hitler split the world with a microphone that he just basically talked the world into war and and he there was a charisma there was a persuasiveness. There was a conviction. You know how dare Europe treat our country this way? Let's be German again. And just his words and force of personality. Look at the horror. So again, it is the most dangerous gift because the things that we regret and look back on historically, whether in this country or other countries, 100% of the time, somebody was leading the charge and they led in a dangerous direction, but people followed because people follow leaders. It's there's no way around it. So it is the most wonderful and it is the most dangerous gift. This episode is brought to you by AI and the future church, a Bara leadership intensive. So, my guess is you and your team are making decisions about AI without having important conversations about it first.

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This episode is brought to you by Glue. We all know how fast things move in ministry and how hard it can be to keep up. And that's exactly what the Glue feed is built for. This is a totally free regular text that delivers the latest research, trending topics, and updates from across the church. For example, did you see the surprising reversal in where Americans are trending in their commitment to Jesus? Or did you catch the fresh insights on where pastors say they don't have enough support? Well, you would have if you saw the text from the glue feed. This is the best way to stay informed about what matters when it matters without having to sift through the noise. Get all the latest research, updates on AI in the church, access to resources, and much more. Join the glue feed today for free. I get it. I hope you do, too. Text my name, Carrie, to 46816 to join for free. That's c a r e y to 46816. We're going to talk about the evolution of a court, which honestly my favorite part of the book could have been a book in and of itself if you want to write pulling it out and making it its own book, but you know, >> well, you can do that in the >> I don't know. It's it just in fact when I've sent this book to some friends, I've said just read chapter 7. I know you're not going to read my whole book, but just if you'll just read chapter 7, that's all I want you to do. So anyway, >> so we have seen so many people that we followed let us down.

>> Y >> I mean whether it's an affair or financial weirdness or uh abusive culture addiction abusive culture >> right where everybody hates them on the inner circle etc. >> Why do you think that's so endemic? Tony and I, who you know, my wife, we had a conversation where she's like, "Why are you so obsessed with people having affairs?" And I said, "Well, you know, she was a pharmacist. She worked in a hospital pharmacy for years." I said, "Just imagine every doctor and every pharmacist around you, every other >> Yeah. >> their marriage implodes." >> Yeah. >> Are you like, "When is this virus going to infect me?" >> Right. And so I am a little bit obsessed with the question because it just seems like all the conditions around power, around influence, >> around people who don't tell you what you need to hear, they're all present in leadership. So when you think about a lot of our colleagues and some of our close friends >> who who have ended up in that place, >> Yeah. I just Andy, I'd love your take on it. Like what are the conditions that set that up?

>> Well, it's funny you the way you said it's different the way I said it, but we said the same things every time one of these story and you know for us because of what we pay attention to to things other people don't pay attention to. So there there are big scandals that everybody hears about, but for every big one, there's 10 smaller ones because we know the the characters or we know the organization and and doesn't make headlines, but it's like, "No, not them. Wait, him, not him. Her, you know, so you get enough of that." And every time that happens, I over the last four or five years, I would say to Sandra, I should quit now. I should just quit now. And she's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, but to your point, it see it almost seems like a virus. Yeah. >> Which it's not. No. >> And but there's so much of it you think, okay, I need to get out now while the getting's good before I do something stupid. And she's like, what? I'm like, I don't know, but these these are amazing people. These are people we've we've done meals with that we've I mean, yeah, these were normal, wonderful people, great marriages, and then you find out what was going on behind the scenes, and it's like it's it's appropriately scary because to the point of this conversation, leadership is the wonderful, dangerous gift. And it means people like me and like you, we are potentially dangerous because we're persuasive. I mean, give me and you a microphone and an audience. And you know, we can persuade enough people to do something um you know, unethical or whatever it might be. And and it's not

because people are stupid. It's because people love clarity. And one of the things about one of the combinations of a leader with a communication gift is once you bring clarity to something people we we love certainty. We can't get certainty. Next best thing is clarity. And when somebody stands up and says this is what we're going to do. This is going to solve this. This is going to change things. It's like yes, let's do this. And here's my time. Here's my finances. Here are resources. So it's just so dangerous. But to the the point of your question, the you know the if there if there's a common denominator in all of those stories, there is unhealth that was never dealt with. There's unhealth that is never dealt with. And one of the reasons it's not dealt with is because the person's the leader and they don't have to deal with it, right? Because nobody confronts. You follow a leader, you don't confront the leader unless the leader invites it and actually sets up parameters. um and guard rails and and when a leader fails to do that, they can go a long long time um before things surface. So again, it's a wonderful dangerous gift and for those of us who want to finish well, it's incumbent upon us to put guard rails in place, put the right people around us, and to shut up and listen just because we're the best leader in the room, we're not the smartest person in the room. And those two things, you know, oftenimes get

confused. So, I've heard you say, and you've personally answered this already, but a few times, just whatever you do, don't take the stupid pill because so many leaders take the stupid pill, >> and you mentioned unhealth. Yeah. >> That goes unressed. >> Andy, you've written about it. You've talked about it. You've >> you've had to walk that journey. I've been to counseling. I went to on-site earlier this year >> um just to deal with one issue in particular which wasn't headlinew worthy but it was impacting >> just intrusive thoughts and not not good on our marriage but it's like I got to do this now before something breaks it's a preventative maintenance on the vehicle you get your oil changed every >> 10,000 miles whether you need to or not right like >> so when you think about some of the important pro Cuz I think I know you and Sandra and I certainly know your son Andrew well enough cuz we keep doing the same events. >> Yeah. >> And he keeps talking bad about his family. >> He keeps talking bad about his family. >> I tell him if it pays the bills, keep talking bad about the family. Yeah.

>> No, but like you have a solid marriage. >> You you have great children. I know your children. Um and you make mistakes like everybody and you've you've had your share of criticism come your way, but it hasn't hasn't broken you. What have you done in terms of staying healthy as a leader? >> Well, one of the one of the things is I grew up with a in certain circles famous father. Um I feel like I' I live my life twice. I when I was a kid, here's what I experienced and now I'm him and I watch my kids experience what it's it's a very strange thing, but it's a healthy thing. I saw how people were attracted to my dad's influence and then ultimately as you know he became more and more famous attracted to his status but it it just draw I don't want to say it's like drawing flies that's that's not it you're draw you're actually drawing great people who have good intentions and people who have good intentions can destroy you and they don't mean to it's it's just built in and if the leader isn't aware of what's happening happening and if the leader doesn't intentionally resist what's happening, it will happen. And it's in some ways it's nobody's fault. It is the nature of the beast. A person with influence, growing influence, growing notoriety.

People are attracted to those kinds of people. They sue for their attention. They sue for their approval. Not because they're bad people. It's just I mean we've had the experience where you were you walk into a room or you're introduc I don't want to say the wrong thing and when they say something funny it's so funny it is again and we're not doing it on purpose we know better but it's like oh my goodness this is the person I have so much respect for I've read their books or you know whoever it might be so that is that is going to happen and it is incumbent not upon the you know the fans. It is incumbent upon the leader to recognize the influence to appreciate the influence and to guard themselves from being influenced by the people who are sort of under their spell. And it is kind of a spell, right? I can tell you people walk the first time I met certain people. I mean when I met Billy Graham, I mean he wasn't trying to put me under a spell. I was I mean it's Billy Graham.

It's like uh you know it just happens. There's no getting around that. But the leader is responsible for how that influences them. So back to your question, I had a ringside seat to seeing this play out with my dad. And I am so sensitive to it. And I know that that I mean it it is um it is almost a visceral reaction for me to resist those kinds of people because I've seen what can happen. And my dad was amazing and there was no big scandal. He my he and my mom got divorced but that's a whole different story. Had nothing to do with infidelity or nothing to do with addiction or any of that. Um, but I saw him have to I saw how easy it was for him to be influenced, but he didn't grow up like me. He grew up with nothing. I mean, zero. Um, and so he experienced success as a first generation person in his family. So, of course, you're not as sensitive to what can happen, but I'm very sensitive to it. So I think that's an advantage I have are people who are sort of second generation and um you know where somebody's wellknown and you just watch and see people kind of lose their minds good people I mean you know not people with bad motives it's just a dynamic but it is incumbent upon the leader to resist the negative influence

of that dynamic that is going to happen and we've been on both sides we've been the we've been the ones who could hardly even speak because oh my god Gosh, it's whoever it is, right? And we've been to one where you just feel like people are sucking up a little bit or they just can't get close enough and you know and you realize, oh, good people, they're just a little bit flustered because they're in my presence. Hey, we decide where that takes us. And that's it just goes with it just goes with leadership. This episode is brought to you by Janerys. If you lead a church, you know this tension. Your vision keeps growing, but you're giving. It's not keeping pace. Most churches turn to one-time campaigns, which certainly have a time and place. But here's the game changer. Creating a culture of generosity that permeates throughout your entire church. And that's why I'm so excited to announce something brand new. I'm partnering with Janerys to bring their Generosity 360 framework to your church.

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>> You said something really interesting in the book that I hadn't thought about because >> status and affiliation, right? So, if you're in the court of this great leader and again, >> you're in the inner circle. Yeah. >> I think we've talked about this before off mic. You know, you don't have to have a church of 40,000. You got to have a church of 400 and have a court. >> Absolutely. or it's it's like it doesn't have to be huge. >> But I think you said in the book you wrote and correct me if this is because this is from memory. You said the court needs the leader more than the leader needs the court. In other words, they get their identity and their value by I'm one of the inner circle of fill in the blank. Is that right? >> Yes. And >> explore that dynamic. Once you're in the circle, you do just about anything to stay in the circle, >> right? >> Is it your end? >> And you'll do just about anything to keep other people out of the circle.

And it's going on constantly. And I don't think people are aware that they're doing it. It's just human nature. But what it does if the leader isn't aware and if the leader doesn't resist the influence it that group of people has the the way I say it in the book I think they have the potential to love the leader to death. They have the potential to love and appreciate the leader into some unhealthy place because they're always right. Their jokes are always funny. Um and then and you know people in the marketplace you can't even imagine. Well, I guess you can imagine, but then if you're a pastor and you've got God on your side and now you're speaking for God and you're in God's will and you're a spiritual leader, I mean, that compounds the influence. I mean, you know, 10 or 20 or 100fold. And this is why to your point, a pastor in a small church with 400 people has both the personal influence, but then they've got the whole pastor, preacher, God's on my side. Nobody talks about the Bible the way you do pastor. It's it is so dangerous. And we have seen in fact everybody is aware of people pastors who have leveraged the God piece of that for their own benefit for their own to satisfy their own appetites and it just it just goes bad really quick.

>> Yeah. Uh, I want to I want to go there for a minute and maybe I'm I'm realizing this has been your influence on me because and I take full responsibility. I am very careful to speak for God. I've led capital campaigns. I don't think I've ever said God's will is God's vision is told me. Yeah. >> We think this is a good idea. >> We hope God blesses you. >> That's the right way to do it. >> Is it? >> I think. Well, I think I think I got that from you because >> Well, the way I would say it is I would say to leaders to to church leaders or pastors say, "Look, >> if you're confident this is the way that God wants your church to go, great. Now, use your leadership to get the church there. Don't leverage God told me it's God." Once you do that, that's I think that's bad leadership. Not to mention, you might be wrong. If you're confident and you're the leader, leverage your leadership and your influence, but you know, don't cross that line. I just think it it it's unnecessary. It's inappropriate. And I just I think it sets leaders up to that whole thing of, well, because if God told you, the the conversation's over, right? I mean, God told who's going to quibble with that?

>> Yeah. I can't even ask any questions at that point. So, it it's it's, you know, it's it's a misuse of of leadership. That's one of the criticisms of a lot of my writing is like, well, where's God in this? Where's prayer in this? Where's the Holy Spirit in this? I'm like, >> no, it's implied and I'm not I'm doing a cultural commentary here or I'm commenting on some aspect of leadership, but I'm not going to say and this is the way God says you should lead. Now, >> if it's like you should not commit adultery, I'm pretty sure I can speak for God on that. I'm pretty sure that's accurate. If it's love your neighbor the way you love yourself and love God with all your heart, I can probably quote God. those aren't the those aren't the teachings that get leaders in trouble, is it? No, it's the it's the very specific thing to our specific budget and you know all that stuff. So, and it's it's just not necessary. And I've I've never led that way. And yet, you know, we've been very successful in terms of you know, if we're just going to compare it and the point I'm not the point isn't to brag, the point is to say it's not necessary. If you have a leadership gear, leverage your leadership, good leadership principles and just lead >> well. And if God was actually behind it, that'll become clear in the rearview mirror.

>> That's exactly right. >> And if you were wrong, >> Yeah. >> that's your job. You get up there and say, "I misled us. I made a mistake. I am so sorry. Will you please forgive me?" >> Yeah. We're going to do something else. Our first capital campaign that we did was a disaster. I made it up. We didn't bring in anybody who knew how to do that. I'm like, "Oh, we can figure this out." This was 30 31 years ago, and it wasn't working. There was a woman, her name's Marca, and she was a force of nature, just this wonderful woman, but very extroverted and very confident. And after a service, she came up to me because it was clear, she was on our stewardship team. It was clear this was not working. And she said, "Andy," she said, "you know something about it's not working. The money's not coming in." And then she said, "What do you think God is trying to tell you?" >> My favorite question. >> I know. And I said, "Marca, God is trying to tell me, Andy, you came up with a lousy stewardship plan. Come up with a do a better one." I But you know, her implication was maybe we shouldn't be raising this money. I'm like, "No, he's just what if God's telling me anything?" It's like, "You don't know anything. You don't know how to do this, but it needs to be done anyway." So anyway, >> now um how have you resisted the evolution of a court?

>> Because I'm sure you've had courtiers to use the technical sense. I'm sure you've had people who want to be in your orbit and I I mean I remember >> took me quite a few years to get over it just like wow I'm with Andy Stanley. I'm standing in the same room having a conversation and then you know eventually you're like oh yeah he's just a person like I am. Yeah, it's not that big of a deal after all, >> which it's not. >> No, but I mean, when you have respect for someone >> and they've had a big impact and they've really impacted your life personally, >> it is really hard not to get sucked into that orbit. >> Yeah. >> So, how have you over all these years of leadership >> resisted the evolution of a court and what would you recommend? >> Yeah. Well, as you know, you can comment on this. I Another big advantage first seeing it play out growing up, the good and the bad. That helps. But the other advantage I have is when we started the church, um I started with four people who I who I had known for years, but Rick Holidayiday and I um our business administrator went to college together.

He was my only roommate I ever had before I got married. So, we'd known each other longer than we'd known our wives. um those relationships that started off as friendships and then we worked together in another organization and then we all moved together to start this organization and overnight I became their boss but I had I was already their friend and they were appropriately not impressed with me. I mean, I'm just Andy. And and for Rick Holidayiday, who went to college with me, he has he has the stories that underscored why we should not be overly impressed with Andy because the things that we used to do in college. That was that is a huge huge advantage to have people who again they're not they don't come into your orbit as employees or even as congregants or customers or whatever it might be. But those pre-established relationships and again the relationship changed when I became the boss and they worked for me and then eventually even for each other >> that and as you know three of those founders are still in our organization.

Absolutely. >> And when we get together with as couples, husband and wives um it is so powerful and it is so healthy. And here's kind of the bottom line. I know for a fact that those three folks and some of the people sitting in the room watching us record this. They would quit before they would follow me into stupidity because their commitment is number one to their savior and number two they are committed to the health and success of this organization more than they're committed to me. And this is something I reiterate as many times as I can. You know, I used to say, "If I catch you wearing a WW AD bracelet, what would Andy do?" You can't work here. I do not want you trying to figure out what I want you to do. I want you to do what's best for the organization. If I don't like it, that's on me. Because the organization is more important than anybody in the organization, including me. I've said that over and over and over. And what that does, it attracts healthy people. And the unhealthy people who are just in it to win it for something for themselves, they bounce.

they just they they are such an anomaly. They're they're they're such a standout. They just don't last. Um culture it is >> I think it is almost 100% culture which impacts how we hire who we hire. Um, and it's again, it's not perfect, but you know, maybe to a fault. I fear what can happen to me, to my family, and to our organization if I ever, you know, reduce those guard rails or just, you know, start doing something silly. But I'm telling you, they're I know, you know, Rick and Lane and Bill, they would call me out. They would be on the front porch going, "Who in the do you think you are?" You know, we you know >> how you know the other in the book I I shared another example of this. Jeff Foxworthy. >> Yeah. >> The comedian. He and I have been friends for years. And so when I was writing the book um Jeff has been everywhere. He sold more comedy um thing, you know, books and magazines and tapes. He sold more uh merchandise than any other comedian who's ever lived. Um you know, massively successful. But Jeff is in love with his first wife and has raised his daughters and he's just incredible.

So um I asked so I sat down and interviewed him. I said I want you tell me give me your version of how you have resisted the evolution of a court. Tell me how you have not been affected by your success and specifically how have you not allowed your identity to shift from your values and your family to your public success? Because that's what happens over time, you know, and we were at the restaurant when we I interviewed him. Um, you know, this what happens everywhere I go with Jeff. Somebody walks up and says, >> "Do you know who you look like?" And he always says, "Brad Pit." You know, >> and so they're, "Oh, you're Jeff Foxworthy." So here you have this huge public identity and yet you have not allowed your internal identity to attach to that. You have stayed attached. So I I I said, you know, what's your secret? You know, how did you how did you do that? And um that that conversation I put in the book because I thought even though he's not a quote a leader in terms of organization >> in terms of someone who's allowed their kept their identity centered where it needed to be around his values. It's a great example because he's been in environments where the temptation is off the chart stuff that you more than you'd see in ministry.

>> Yeah. Far Yeah. And yet there, you know, he's remained there. And one of the big takeaways from that conversation because I Andrew's our oldest son, the comedian. I said, "What would you say to Andrew? I'd love for him to get to your age." Jeff and I are the same age. I'd love for him to get to this stage in his life as a comedian and still be family centered. What would you tell him? And he immediately said, >> "Your ego is not your friend. Your ego is not your friend." And I thought, "That's it. Because my everything my ego whispers to me is wrong. It's unhealthy. You deserve it. you're entitled to they don't understand blah blah blah blah blah he said your ego is not your friend and then Billy Phoenix on our staff when I shared it said your ego is not your amigo and I thought that would be a shirt you know so anyway long answer to your question >> the other thing you've done too and I mean I saw it again when I drove up here to the church there's no reserve parking spot for you >> right >> um I think you wrote in the book still don't have a private bathroom >> y in my in your office >> and other things like that like I remember when I I started as a student pastor so I was still in the seminary so I couldn't and I was mainline at that point so couldn't wear a collar couldn't wear robes then I got ordained >> y >> and you could wear the collar and wear the robes and there was something in me that really resisted it >> cuz I'm like I wasn't supposed to be in ministry I was supposed to be in law >> you were yeah >> you were a lawyer

>> I was a lawyer I'm like I I'm I'm one of you And so I ditched that stuff. I still have it hanging in a closet somewhere in my house, but like I ditch that stuff. I'm like, I'm just one of you. And before we met, I'm like, I'm not Reverend. I'm not the very reverend. I'm not the most reverend. I'm not anything. I'm not a pastor. >> Call me Carrie. And I think that's one of the things that I really liked about North Point when we were looking at becoming affiliated was you're just Andy. And you get into these cultures of honor, etc. Yep. >> It's dangerous. >> What? Tell us about >> dangerous. >> It's so dangerous. And again, it's not any The only person who's responsible for managing this dynamic is the leader. There's no one to blame. >> People honor you. You said something that changed their life. I read your book, Carrie. It changed my life. They're gracious. They they really see you as as something other than them, even though you don't see yourself that way. And because people they don't you they build the pedestal and they keep trying to put you up there, put me up there. So it's incumbent upon us not to live there. So anything we can do practically to stay off the pedestal so I don't have a reserved parking spot.

Just call me Andy. And if somebody calls me pastor Andy, I don't correct them. That's just they're they're being respectful. It's the culture. >> You're not introduced that way. No, that it's and all those things and all those the robes, all the stuff, the titles, it creates just a degree of separation. And that's dangerous because suddenly I'm special or I'm more special or I'm more important. And you know, we know we're not. But if I if I buy into the identity that people want to put on me, it's almost game over because once you you know, once I'm no once it's no longer Jeff Foxworthy, father and husband first, comedian second, once it's all about that identity, then what you do is you have to fight to maintain that identity. And then there's going to be a values conflict. And now there's something that would help maintain this identity as a comedian versus my identity as father and husband. Now there's conflict. I have to choose.

Well, if I've already made the switch, if I've already jumped the fence over here, then the family is going to suffer. Same for pastor. Same for other people. So, it's it's about intentionality. It's about surrounding yourself with people who don't just share your interest, but share your values. That is so critical because that's the connecting point and that's a guardrail. Yeah, it's funny. I haven't thought about this in a long time, but in seminary, I remember learning about the origin of the Geneva gown, which is the black gown that a lot of mainline, you know, Presbyterians would wear. >> Was actually what Calvin wore because he lectured at the university. And it would just be like you and a polo or me in a zip, that kind of thing. >> And then because Calvin wore it and everybody wore it in academia, it became normal. And then it became >> for clergy. Yeah. >> Yeah. Antiquated. >> Yeah. >> Like peculiar. And then it became sacred. Yeah. >> And that's how it happens. It was it was normal, then it was weird, and then it's sacred because well, that's what Calvin wore. And I I'm curious because you are very well known and I've traveled with you, you know, or been in different places and people always want to talk to you or you go to a restaurant. I imagine it's hard to have a a meal because you have a pretty big >> depends ministry. Most people are great.

>> What happens in those moments? This isn't this this is an important question for me because it's how I was raised, what I saw growing up. I realized early on that my dad was very very very important to people he didn't know. So when people would walk up at restaurants growing up, I saw my dad consistently take responsibility for the stewardship of influence he's had in this person's life. So he didn't wave them off. If it wasn't, well, I'm with my family, you know, it was he understood even though I don't know you, even though I don't know your name, I don't know your story, something I've said has impacted your life. So, I want to step into that role and stay in that role with this stranger. That is so important. That is the that is a good stewardship of influence. and you rec you realize there's nothing special about me, but something I've said or done is special to this person, and I'm going to honor this person by staying in that role for their benefit, but I'm not going to be confused and sit back down with the family and say, "I'm pretty special, aren't I? Did you you know, you know, son, you know, honey, why don't you treat me with the same dignity?" because you just realize now my my I'm centered here, but I'm going to step out of this role for a moment to sort of play the part that God has positioned me in um

the life of this person because of something I said or pre or in some cases it's not something I said when you said such and such and I'm like I think that was Chuck Swindoll but anyway but yeah you just you're gracious but I saw my dad just be gracious even in awkward situations ations and I I I I um I've done my best to to copy that. I because I'm not important. I'm not special. But if I'm important to someone else, then that's a stewardship of responsibility. >> Yeah. >> One of the things that happens with the evolution of a court is it can become uh protective of criticism. >> Oh yeah. >> So in other words, they're going to filter everything for you so you only hear the good things. >> I have been amazed. I think I have enough of a a inside look to know that you don't shield yourself from criticism. First of all, you've had your fair share of criticism over the years. >> You don't shield yourself from it. In fact, sometimes it can become you're spending too much time listening to the critics or a lot of time listening to critics.

>> How talk about how that dynamic has played out in your ministry and then what your advice for leaders is on criticism and how to handle it. Um well going back to where you started the question. So Diane Grant who is has been my administrative assistant for 30 years. In fact at the end of the book I insisted we include this. I interviewed her about what she learned about how to be a good administrative assistant and included that because for a leader, the person who is managing the calendar and who has access to the leader every single day or five days a week or whatever it might be, um they are not confused and they should not be overly impressed because again this is you know this is daytoday there's not there's nothing to hide from that person. So um so anyway, so I that's one of the reasons I included that in there. Anyway, I was going to take this back to the beginning of your question and I forgot. >> Yeah. Which was um the court can sometimes insulate and we know endemic to leadership, you don't always get the truth.

>> Yeah. So early on in our working together, I told her, "Do not shield me from criticism." I I don't I just don't I in fact I am more interested in the critical email and letters than I am in the Andy thank you so much for what you said Sunday. I get I get so much of that because again our congregation's large and you know I I get so much encouragement. I said don't shield me from the the negative. I need to read it. U and in many cases and now you know our routine is if somebody is kind of critical she'll she'll type it out or she she'll print it out or um copy it and then she'll look up to see if they're in our database and she just goes ahead and puts their phone number on there like cuz she knows you're going to call in many not every case but in many cases I'm like okay I want to understand this better and if they're especially if they're part of our congregation I don't I don't want to just have her respond to an email. There are times that's appropriate. I want to call them. And um that's just good pastoring and that's good leadership.

And there there's always something to be learned in most cases um from critics. So it's I think it's foolish to you know I mean at some point I mean there are people who've gone through things where they just need a break. They need a year off from the critics. But for the most part I I have welcomed that. And it you know that's if if one person thinks that a hundred people think that. So why not know even if there's nothing to do or nothing to change. So >> there's a quote in the book that says the monster Adolf Hitler became is the monster those close closest to him enabled him >> to become. >> I think there's so much wisdom in that line because it's not like like who Hitler became was an evolution of the person >> over time. Yeah. >> Over time. >> Yeah. he wasn't that way from the beginning looking for a court and there are and and I think that's true of a lot of our colleagues who we've seen fail or fall >> is they didn't start out that way they ended up that way and maybe and I'm thinking about this question in that quote for leaders who are just starting out because they're like >> I agree with everything you said >> I'm not going to have a court but it's so insidious >> and then you become a different person >> y because you've got a court.

>> Yeah, >> I know we talked about it for a while, but again, I think it's one of the strongest and most powerful messages of the book. >> Unpack that. The monster Adolf Hitler became is the monster those closest to him enabled him to become. So, where all this came from um is years ago, you and I love history. I read Inside the Third Reich by Albert Spear. Albert Spear was Hitler's um architect. um he was an so he wasn't a military person over time he be he was put in charge of armaments and as Hitler's circle got smaller and smaller Albert Spear was in that inner circle throughout the history of the rise and fall of Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany so he went to prison he was part of the Nuremberg trials he because he wasn't military he wasn't executed but he spent about I think about 20 years in prison and he wrote his memoir and it's about it's a big book, but it was so fascinating because to your point, he is telling the story of how he saw upfront and close. I mean at some point toward the end on a daily basis the change that happened in a man who obviously was a became a monster but a man who was genuinely at one point just concerned about his country because after the first world war there were so many things imposed on Germany that Germany I mean their economy was in shambles and

they weren't ever going to recover and so here is basically a patriot who's like we're going to do something. So Albert Spear traces the rise and the development of this inner circle, this court and the line in the book where this phrase comes from is he says Hitler never resisted the evolution of a court. He never resisted. When I read that and Sandra read this too um it it just this was years ago. We decided okay we have to appropriately resist. It is not the people in the court's fault. I cannot there's no one to blame. It is on me to appropriately resist. And in other words, if you don't resist it, it's going to happen. It can't not happen because people are attracted to people of influence. They sue for their approval. They sue for their attention. They sue for their time. And if you don't resist it, it you're going to wake up one day and you're going to be surrounded with people who think all your your ideas are good. All your answers are the correct ideas. And then you throw pastor or clergy on top of it and it's like and God is on my side.

It's a disaster. So we became intentional about resisting the evolution of a court. And that has everything to do with who you have around you and the permission you give them to confront you or to ask you the hard questions. If if someone is afraid of penalizing their relationship with me because they're asking me a question that needs to be asked, whose fault is that? That is me 100% and that's my insecurity. And the the best leaders and we know some some people like this men and women. The best leaders are the leaders who understand their gear. They understand their stewardship and they are secure. They are not easily threatened. They don't bristle when they're either questioned or somebody asks a question. There's a big part of the book that talks about the power of questions and the importance of never bristling, but to ask act as if every question is a legitimate question because why not? I'm the leader. why why should I be threatened you know by somebody who works with me asking a question even if it's an agenda or a hidden or a veiled um criticism so that's where the phrase the resisting the evolution of a court it is I don't know that it's the number one job of a leader but once a leader has some public notoriety and influence >> maybe maybe job number one is resist the slow evolution of that inner circle that

becomes a court who are going to do everything they can to stay in it, which means they will lie to you. They will not tell you the truth and they will bicker with each other and they will keep other people out. And it sounds so, you know, dramatic, but uh that that is a real that's a dynamic that's really happening to some extent all the time. I think >> I appreciate your transparency. At one point you wrote quote, I like being special. Yeah, >> that one hit a little close to home. Do you like being special? Oh gosh. Does anyone not like being special? >> Oh, I like being acknowledged at the restaurant if I'm a regular. I like uh you know the status an airline gives you. I like all that stuff way too much. Andy, >> why do people use that American Express card for everything? Because they want to be special, right? >> Yeah. What What does that look like for you? >> Yeah. So where this came from was uh when I read From Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks, great book.

>> Um he tells a story about a woman who's was very successful in the marketplace. Um her marriage was a mess. She was alienated from her kids. And so she comes to Arthur and they're having this conversation and he was a little bit not confused but he was amused by the fact that she was so intuitive and she was so intuitive about her own situation. She basically self diagnosed. here's the problem. And he's kind of like, all right, well, you already know what to do and how to fix it, you know, why why do you continue to? And he she was at a point in her career >> where she because of her age, um she was kind of losing it a little bit, like she wasn't as sharp as she was. Here comes this next generation and she was so she was kind of scrambling and striving to stay, you know, stay in this exalted place in the organization. So, she was frustrated by having how hard she had to work. her family's a mess and he's like, "Well, do do something." And as they talked, she made this statement. She said, you know, she was very unhappy.

That's why she came to see him because he talks about happiness. He's written books on happiness. He lectures on happiness. She's like, I'm not happy. >> And so once it, you know, came came to the point of, okay, well, you know what to do. Why won't you do it? She said, I guess I would rather be special than happy. In other words, if I give up this esteemed job with all this stuff that makes me special. True, maybe I could quit my job and go home and work on my marriage and work on my relationship with my kids and maybe I would be happier, but I won't be special anymore. And she was addicted to special. Well, when I read that, um, I sort of had to come to Jesus internal meeting with myself. You know, sometimes an insight can surprise you so much that it breaks through all your defenses. It's like boom. It's like, oh, I just saw what I have not wanted to see or been able to see. Somehow that story I would rather be special than happy. I acknowledge quickly. Andy, listen. Come on. Quit trying to Look, you like being special and you got to figure that out because your desire to stay special is a trap.

It is. It's suddenly it's it's the thing that could cause you to leap from what you value most to what you want now. What I want now is to be recognized. What I want now is the perks that come with being recognized. Listen, facing that and then talking about it out loud. I talked about it with our staff. And when I interviewed Arthur Brooks, I said, "Thank you for this part of the book because I was willing to recognize and own that I who am I kidding? Of course, I like being special." that you became addicted to being special. It was a >> It's the evolution. It's, you know, once upon a time I was just a kid sitting in the eighth, you know, third row eighth grade math class. I'm not I'm nobody, right? And over time, here's all this good that comes my way. And because it's hard work, you know, all the stuff we do, but with it comes these potential traps. Just being aware of them and keeping them front and center and talking about them out loud is so healthy. And I looked forward to whenever I've had an opportunity. I wrote about it in the book. Hey, >> I admit this. It's a potential trap. I don't want to fall into it. So, I'm going to keep it front and center. Um, but that was u because people treat you special. I watched how special people treated my dad. I saw that of course like anybody else especially because of his upbringing it he was enamor of course he was enamored by that of course he enjoyed that >> poor to this >> yes yeah so again it's a good thing that has a negative potential but once you're

aware you're responsible and you carry that with you as part of your stewardship as a leader >> so Andy identity I mean it was hard for me to give the lead pastor a role >> you know at some point that's going to come for you too >> who are you when all of this goes away? >> And I for your listeners, that is an extremely important question. In fact, again, it's in that same section of the book. What does it mean to find an identity or to have an identity? And identity is built around what we value most. What we really value most, I think, is as close to defining who who am I. It has to do with what I value most. What I value most that then impacts what I do. So discovering a person a person has to go through an exercise to discover what they value most and keep it front and center because that's who they are. And here's how we know that because we've because we're pastors, we've over we've overseen so many funerals, so many celebrations of life, you know, and at celebration of life, you know, three, four, five, six people get up and talk about the deceased. And what do they talk about?

They talk about who they were. >> And it ultimately gets down to character and generosity and it it and but what are they doing when they're doing these eulogies? They talk about who was this person. And when they talk about who this person was or who this person was to me, it always becomes a a conversation about values and character. So that's why I think there may be a better answer but in terms of of um who I am or who you are it is it is informed by the values that we recognize and adhered to and lived according to. So my only unique role in the world my only unique role is father to my children. Period. Sandra can get another husband. I hope she doesn't. But the only I'm never you know eventually somebody else is the pastor of this church but in terms of identity or role or function and values it all goes to those unique things. And when we can stay centered there and manage everything that comes with being known or being successful but stay centered there. Those are the people who finish well and they experience special but they're happy.

>> Yeah. They they want to go home at the end of the day. They look forward to their children. They don't feel like they have to repair a lot of things. >> Work is an escape sometimes. >> Oh yeah. >> Right. Cuz it's not going well at home. >> Yeah. >> You're like, I'll just stay here and put in more hours. So, no, you're right. All of this goes away. >> And I was fortunate when I stepped out of the lead pastor role, I stepped into this. Now, this wasn't what it was what it is today. >> You had to build it >> back then. >> Yeah. But like there's something else that is seducing my identity away. >> You are special for a different reason. Yeah. >> And >> and it's a and you're you're living in that murky, you know, where am I am I censored or am I not? Am I centered where I need to be censored or >> is am I being lured into my public identity and am I going to embrace that at the expense of what I know is most important. And that is a difficult thing especially I think for men to do because our ego is not our amigo and our ego loves special. It loves credit. It loves income. It loves the challenge. It loves go you know it just it's just all about that and you deserve it and you've worked hard for this and you're entitled to goes our ego. But at the end of the day we've we've seen this play out in both directions and we know where we want to end up. And um again managing our leadership gift to end there rather than get distracted. That's that's just part of the tension.

>> So the book is called the most wonderful dangerous gift also known as what great leaders do great leaders do. Yeah. >> Yeah. It and I'm I'm really glad we we barely scratched the surface. I mean there's so much in this book and uh it's my favorite book that you've written. Um it's going to be a reread for me. I actually ordered copies for all of my team. It's like we're going through this together. >> Wow. >> Cuz I think it's just so helpful. So Andy, is there anything anybody hasn't asked you >> about this that you wish they would ask you before we wrap up the book or leadership? Like the thing question nobody ever asks. >> This is practical leadership. And one of the reasons I chose the title is great is as great does. I mean leaders aren't just people who have great ideas. It's it's what doing is what makes the difference. And as I say every time I talk about this, >> when if somebody will do when a if a leader will do what a great leader does, you're a great leader. That's >> I will go home and be present to my spouse.

>> Yeah. >> And my kids >> or I'm going to clarify the win or I'm going to leverage my intuition and the intuition of the people. All these things in this book. If you do these things, this is what great leaders do. It's practical leadership. And that's what finally convinced me to write the book because I didn't want I've had a book this book contract for 10 years. And I just wasn't going to write the book because the world doesn't need another leadership book. And finally a friend said, "Look, don't write a leadership book. Just write a book to leaders." And for whatever reason, that flipped a switch and off I went. So, >> well, I really appreciate it. Glad you did. And thanks for being so open, so vulnerable, so transparent in all of this because you know what that does? It just it just makes it easier for everybody else when you do that. And um people can get the book anywhere. It's widely available. All things Andy are at andystanley.com. >> And you're super active on social media. I know, right? Always. >> Maybe too much. >> Posting deer in your backyard.

>> Deer in the backyard. Yeah. All that stuff. All the cool family stuff. Grandchildren pictures, you know, all the stuff. >> Yeah. All the stuff. Andy, thank you. >> Thank you, Carrie. >> Told you that doesn't disappoint. I think Andy's wheelhouse and leadership is just one of a kind and I felt like we talked a lot afterwards as well. I felt like we could have just kept going and going and going on this topic. And maybe maybe he'll take that chapter seven about great leaders resist the evolution of a court and turn that into a book at some point. I think he should because we need it. We really need it. Coming up on the podcast, we've got Lisa Turkers, Ron Freriedman, Mark Batterson, Vanessa Van Edwards, and a whole lot more coming up. Kate Bowler, and man, we have got just Malcolm Gladwell. We've got a stacked fall/inter for you. If you never want to miss an episode, hit subscribe or follow wherever you're watching. And if you want show notes, join the over 23,000 leaders in the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where we post it. That's where the show notes are. We have some vibrant conversations about things in there and you can join for free today at the art of leadershipacademy.com.

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