The Quantum Revolution with Turing Award Winners Charles Bennett and Gilles Brassard

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minutes for 250 free searches a month. [music] [music] [music] Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman and this is Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman and this is Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman and this is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today we have the pleasure of chatting with we have the pleasure of chatting with we have the pleasure of chatting with Charles H. Bennett and Jill Brasar. They Charles H. Bennett and Jill Brasar. They Charles H. Bennett and Jill Brasar. They are the ACMA AM touring award uh winners are the ACMA AM touring award uh winners are the ACMA AM touring award uh winners and we have the distinct pleasure of and we have the distinct pleasure of and we have the distinct pleasure of speaking with them in association with speaking with them in association with speaking with them in association with the ACM bikecast. Thank you both for the ACM bikecast. Thank you both for the ACM bikecast. Thank you both for your time and uh for spending it with me your time and uh for spending it with me your time and uh for spending it with me today. Is it in fact true that you met today. Is it in fact true that you met today. Is it in fact true that you met each other in Puerto Rico in 1979 and each other in Puerto Rico in 1979 and each other in Puerto Rico in 1979 and that you were swimming and uh Charles that you were swimming and uh Charles that you were swimming and uh Charles just came up to you because he'd heard just came up to you because he'd heard just came up to you because he'd heard you were interested in the same things you were interested in the same things you were interested in the same things he was interested in. That's pretty he was interested in. That's pretty he was interested in. That's pretty accurate. Yes. And the reason he knew accurate. Yes. And the reason he knew accurate. Yes. And the reason he knew that is that this took place at the that is that this took place at the that is that this took place at the conference and in the program Charlie conference and in the program Charlie conference and in the program Charlie noticed that I would speak and on the noticed that I would speak and on the noticed that I would speak and on the last day on cryptography and oracles and last day on cryptography and oracles and last day on cryptography and oracles and these were two topics dear to his heart.

these were two topics dear to his heart. these were two topics dear to his heart. In particular, he had submitted a paper In particular, he had submitted a paper In particular, he had submitted a paper at the same conference on oracles and at the same conference on oracles and at the same conference on oracles and his paper was rejected. But uh he came his paper was rejected. But uh he came his paper was rejected. But uh he came in nevertheless. uh and I remember I in nevertheless. uh and I remember I in nevertheless. uh and I remember I remember he told me about the contents remember he told me about the contents remember he told me about the contents of that paper not that it had been of that paper not that it had been of that paper not that it had been rejected when we met in 79 and I rejected when we met in 79 and I rejected when we met in 79 and I remember at the end of my talk or some remember at the end of my talk or some remember at the end of my talk or some some sometimes during my talk I some sometimes during my talk I some sometimes during my talk I mentioned that the most exciting thing mentioned that the most exciting thing mentioned that the most exciting thing that happened to me at the conference that happened to me at the conference that happened to me at the conference was to hear about Charlie's idea about was to hear about Charlie's idea about was to hear about Charlie's idea about oracles and and and I hope that there oracles and and and I hope that there oracles and and and I hope that there were people in the program committee were people in the program committee were people in the program committee there who grined uh because I was just there who grined uh because I was just there who grined uh because I was just telling them how wrong they had been in telling them how wrong they had been in telling them how wrong they had been in in rejecting the paper even though I in rejecting the paper even though I in rejecting the paper even though I didn't know it had rejected or didn't know it had rejected or didn't know it had rejected or submitted. submitted. submitted. >> So you you each correct me if I'm wrong, >> So you you each correct me if I'm wrong, >> So you you each correct me if I'm wrong, but you each came at this from a but you each came at this from a but you each came at this from a different direction. You know, Charles different direction. You know, Charles different direction. You know, Charles from the physics of information, J from from the physics of information, J from from the physics of information, J from computer science and cryptography. Is computer science and cryptography. Is computer science and cryptography. Is this a situation where the difference in this a situation where the difference in this a situation where the difference in your backgrounds is actually necessary your backgrounds is actually necessary your backgrounds is actually necessary cuz you can see something that you would cuz you can see something that you would cuz you can see something that you would not be able to see on your own and but not be able to see on your own and but not be able to see on your own and but together you're better than the sum of together you're better than the sum of together you're better than the sum of your parts.

your parts. your parts. >> Absolutely. It's it's a beautiful >> Absolutely. It's it's a beautiful >> Absolutely. It's it's a beautiful example of multiddisciplinary research. example of multiddisciplinary research. example of multiddisciplinary research. And and really what we did came about And and really what we did came about And and really what we did came about from the meeting not only of two people from the meeting not only of two people from the meeting not only of two people but of two fields namely computer but of two fields namely computer but of two fields namely computer science and cryptography on my side and science and cryptography on my side and science and cryptography on my side and physics and physics of information on physics and physics of information on physics and physics of information on Charlie's side. It's really because Charlie's side. It's really because Charlie's side. It's really because these two fields met in the ocean in San these two fields met in the ocean in San these two fields met in the ocean in San San Puerto Rico that's the meeting of San Puerto Rico that's the meeting of San Puerto Rico that's the meeting of the fields not just of the people that the fields not just of the people that the fields not just of the people that made all that possible. M and Charles, made all that possible. M and Charles, made all that possible. M and Charles, what did you see in you that made you what did you see in you that made you what did you see in you that made you think this is the person I need to talk think this is the person I need to talk think this is the person I need to talk to about this? This is somebody who gets to about this? This is somebody who gets to about this? This is somebody who gets it. it. it. >> Well, nothing originally. I the as he >> Well, nothing originally. I the as he >> Well, nothing originally. I the as he pointed out reminded me uh a a paper of pointed out reminded me uh a a paper of pointed out reminded me uh a a paper of mine uh I think it was the one on on the mine uh I think it was the one on on the mine uh I think it was the one on on the random oracles, right? random oracles, right? random oracles, right? >> That's correct. Yeah, >> That's correct. Yeah, >> That's correct. Yeah, >> that was rejected and that later turned >> that was rejected and that later turned >> that was rejected and that later turned into a a somewhat worthwhile paper I into a a somewhat worthwhile paper I into a a somewhat worthwhile paper I think with wi with another person whom I think with wi with another person whom I think with wi with another person whom I didn't hadn't met before going to the didn't hadn't met before going to the didn't hadn't met before going to the conference which is John Gil who was the conference which is John Gil who was the conference which is John Gil who was the my co-author but so I told him about my co-author but so I told him about my co-author but so I told him about that but what the the important thing that but what the the important thing that but what the the important thing about this meeting and then also about this meeting and then also about this meeting and then also emphasizes this interaction between the emphasizes this interaction between the emphasizes this interaction between the two fields which were much more separate two fields which were much more separate two fields which were much more separate then than they are now.

then than they are now. then than they are now. uh is that I told him about something I uh is that I told him about something I uh is that I told him about something I had known about for uh almost 20 years had known about for uh almost 20 years had known about for uh almost 20 years that seemed just like an interesting that seemed just like an interesting that seemed just like an interesting curiosity about the way information curiosity about the way information curiosity about the way information behaved and he said though this is behaved and he said though this is behaved and he said though this is important it's it's connects with ideas important it's it's connects with ideas important it's it's connects with ideas in cryptography which I hadn't heard in cryptography which I hadn't heard in cryptography which I hadn't heard about and which so he said you know this about and which so he said you know this about and which so he said you know this this stuff that you're telling me about this stuff that you're telling me about this stuff that you're telling me about if it's really true we should write a if it's really true we should write a if it's really true we should write a paper about it and so I had been sort of paper about it and so I had been sort of paper about it and so I had been sort of sitting on this thing and telling people sitting on this thing and telling people sitting on this thing and telling people about it on and off. Isn't this about it on and off. Isn't this about it on and off. Isn't this interesting thing without really taking interesting thing without really taking interesting thing without really taking it very seriously myself? it very seriously myself? it very seriously myself? >> Well, but also >> Well, but also >> Well, but also >> so he was the first computer scientist. >> so he was the first computer scientist. >> so he was the first computer scientist. >> If I may interrupt, if I may, sorry. Uh >> If I may interrupt, if I may, sorry. Uh >> If I may interrupt, if I may, sorry. Uh the main reason why I was the first the main reason why I was the first the main reason why I was the first person to be interested by you're trying person to be interested by you're trying person to be interested by you're trying to tell these ideas to many people is to tell these ideas to many people is to tell these ideas to many people is that all the others were physicists. that all the others were physicists. that all the others were physicists. >> The others were me. >> The others were me. >> The others were me. All the others, All the others, All the others, >> he was saying that the others are >> he was saying that the others are >> he was saying that the others are physicists. He's saying that you were physicists. He's saying that you were physicists. He's saying that you were running around telling everyone about running around telling everyone about running around telling everyone about your ideas, but the the difference was your ideas, but the the difference was your ideas, but the the difference was the other people I talked to, they the other people I talked to, they the other people I talked to, they thought it was interesting physics, but thought it was interesting physics, but thought it was interesting physics, but they didn't think it was they didn't think it was they didn't think it was >> they they went back to their day jobs as >> they they went back to their day jobs as >> they they went back to their day jobs as doing other kinds of physics, doing other kinds of physics, doing other kinds of physics, >> right? So, bringing computer science >> right? So, bringing computer science >> right? So, bringing computer science into it uh makes a difference, which into it uh makes a difference, which into it uh makes a difference, which makes me wonder and I I am not a a makes me wonder and I I am not a a makes me wonder and I I am not a a theorist. My degree is not in computer theorist. My degree is not in computer theorist. My degree is not in computer science but my degree is rather in science but my degree is rather in science but my degree is rather in software engineering and I struggle software engineering and I struggle software engineering and I struggle sometimes to bridge the theoretical to

sometimes to bridge the theoretical to sometimes to bridge the theoretical to the practical and I don't understand the the practical and I don't understand the the practical and I don't understand the leap that happens or the work that leap that happens or the work that leap that happens or the work that happens in fundamental research and then happens in fundamental research and then happens in fundamental research and then how it turns into something that affects how it turns into something that affects how it turns into something that affects my daily life and I know that you both my daily life and I know that you both my daily life and I know that you both feel very strongly about the importance feel very strongly about the importance feel very strongly about the importance of fundamental research particularly you of fundamental research particularly you of fundamental research particularly you you feel that fundamental research is you feel that fundamental research is you feel that fundamental research is something that we're going to lose sight something that we're going to lose sight something that we're going to lose sight of if we're not careful. Is that of if we're not careful. Is that of if we're not careful. Is that correct? correct? correct? >> Well, not necessarily, but but it's >> Well, not necessarily, but but it's >> Well, not necessarily, but but it's something that has to be encouraged uh something that has to be encouraged uh something that has to be encouraged uh and funded and funded and funded because because because you know innovation and and what happens you know innovation and and what happens you know innovation and and what happens in the in practical life is the end of a in the in practical life is the end of a in the in practical life is the end of a pipeline and the pipeline has several pipeline and the pipeline has several pipeline and the pipeline has several stages in it including u marketing, stages in it including u marketing, stages in it including u marketing, innovation, all sorts of things. But innovation, all sorts of things. But innovation, all sorts of things. But this pipeline starts with fundamental this pipeline starts with fundamental this pipeline starts with fundamental research. Uh by which I mean research research. Uh by which I mean research research. Uh by which I mean research that is c curiositydriven that is c curiositydriven that is c curiositydriven by people who have no by people who have no by people who have no reason to believe that it's ever going reason to believe that it's ever going reason to believe that it's ever going to be useful for anything. research to be useful for anything. research to be useful for anything. research whose only purpose is to understand whose only purpose is to understand whose only purpose is to understand nature and and then maybe maybe it will nature and and then maybe maybe it will nature and and then maybe maybe it will remain remain remain sort of useless forever from a practical sort of useless forever from a practical sort of useless forever from a practical perspective or maybe there would be perspective or maybe there would be perspective or maybe there would be completely unpredictable application completely unpredictable application completely unpredictable application that would come up years later and the that would come up years later and the that would come up years later and the best example of this is the development best example of this is the development best example of this is the development of relativity by Einstein and quantum of relativity by Einstein and quantum of relativity by Einstein and quantum theory by Boore and others in the early theory by Boore and others in the early theory by Boore and others in the early 20th century. These people were

20th century. These people were 20th century. These people were doing this research purely for doing this research purely for doing this research purely for understanding nature and they had understanding nature and they had understanding nature and they had absolutely no idea that a few tens tens absolutely no idea that a few tens tens absolutely no idea that a few tens tens of years later the entire society would of years later the entire society would of years later the entire society would be completely transformed by their be completely transformed by their be completely transformed by their discoveries. discoveries. discoveries. We would not have computers today. I We would not have computers today. I We would not have computers today. I mean not electronic computers without mean not electronic computers without mean not electronic computers without understanding of quantum mechanics and understanding of quantum mechanics and understanding of quantum mechanics and and in fact quantum theory appears in and in fact quantum theory appears in and in fact quantum theory appears in almost every gadget that that you have almost every gadget that that you have almost every gadget that that you have in your in your life today. Uh and and in your in your life today. Uh and and in your in your life today. Uh and and again without this fundamental research again without this fundamental research again without this fundamental research that had no practical purpose whatsoever that had no practical purpose whatsoever that had no practical purpose whatsoever we would not be here today and we would we would not be here today and we would we would not be here today and we would not be talking at a distance. uh so fun not be talking at a distance. uh so fun not be talking at a distance. uh so fun research is is absolutely essential for research is is absolutely essential for research is is absolutely essential for for for science to continue but also for for for science to continue but also for for for science to continue but also for practical applications to follow practical applications to follow practical applications to follow sometimes sometimes not but you don't sometimes sometimes not but you don't sometimes sometimes not but you don't know in advance so you have to continue know in advance so you have to continue know in advance so you have to continue anyways anyways anyways I think the the the the part of this I think the the the the part of this I think the the the the part of this that I would like to emphasize is that that I would like to emphasize is that that I would like to emphasize is that the the the reason it should be driven the the the reason it should be driven the the the reason it should be driven by curiosity is because if you try to by curiosity is because if you try to by curiosity is because if you try to make the basic research discoveries that make the basic research discoveries that make the basic research discoveries that you need in order to build something you need in order to build something you need in order to build something that you want to build, you will that you want to build, you will that you want to build, you will probably probably probably miss what turns out eventually to be miss what turns out eventually to be miss what turns out eventually to be important.

important. important. >> Interesting. So in other words you >> Interesting. So in other words you >> Interesting. So in other words you that's the reason that understanding of that's the reason that understanding of that's the reason that understanding of course there are engineering problems course there are engineering problems course there are engineering problems like you have to you I know IBM one of like you have to you I know IBM one of like you have to you I know IBM one of the things that they dealt with was uh the things that they dealt with was uh the things that they dealt with was uh some problem of electromigration and some problem of electromigration and some problem of electromigration and they solved it by using copper copper they solved it by using copper copper they solved it by using copper copper instead of aluminum. So there they were instead of aluminum. So there they were instead of aluminum. So there they were trying to solve a problem and they had trying to solve a problem and they had trying to solve a problem and they had they did some applied research to solve they did some applied research to solve they did some applied research to solve it. But the examples that Gil gave and it. But the examples that Gil gave and it. But the examples that Gil gave and many others, you could say that uh many others, you could say that uh many others, you could say that uh number theory was invented uh by by number theory was invented uh by by number theory was invented uh by by people like uh Fairmont people like uh Fairmont people like uh Fairmont uh and was considered long to be the uh and was considered long to be the uh and was considered long to be the most among the most useless parts of most among the most useless parts of most among the most useless parts of mathematics. mathematics. mathematics. And yet its application what? And yet its application what? And yet its application what? >> And it was called the queen of >> And it was called the queen of >> And it was called the queen of mathematics. mathematics. mathematics. >> The queen of mathematics who was self. >> The queen of mathematics who was self. >> The queen of mathematics who was self. >> So why why the queen? Because number >> So why why the queen? Because number >> So why why the queen? Because number theory was very beautiful and completely theory was very beautiful and completely theory was very beautiful and completely useless. So that's why they called the useless. So that's why they called the useless. So that's why they called the queen of mathematics. And then of course queen of mathematics. And then of course queen of mathematics. And then of course number theory became central to number theory became central to number theory became central to cryptography when RSC and DV Hendland cryptography when RSC and DV Hendland cryptography when RSC and DV Hendland were invented in the mid 1970s. Now it's were invented in the mid 1970s. Now it's were invented in the mid 1970s. Now it's all this is all going to fall apart when all this is all going to fall apart when all this is all going to fall apart when we have a quantum computer. But still we have a quantum computer. But still we have a quantum computer. But still for half a century this useless number for half a century this useless number for half a century this useless number theory took center stage to attempts theory took center stage to attempts theory took center stage to attempts unfortunately vain attempts at unfortunately vain attempts at unfortunately vain attempts at protecting our privacy.

protecting our privacy. protecting our privacy. >> Mhm. I I understand that both of you >> Mhm. I I understand that both of you >> Mhm. I I understand that both of you agree that searching for things that agree that searching for things that agree that searching for things that don't necessarily have practicality is don't necessarily have practicality is don't necessarily have practicality is important. simply exploring because we important. simply exploring because we important. simply exploring because we are exploring matters. Do you think are exploring matters. Do you think are exploring matters. Do you think about there's a problem and I'm trying about there's a problem and I'm trying about there's a problem and I'm trying to solve it which is one kind of to solve it which is one kind of to solve it which is one kind of research. I've identified a problem and research. I've identified a problem and research. I've identified a problem and I'm going to work backwards from that. I'm going to work backwards from that. I'm going to work backwards from that. And then there's the pulling on a thread And then there's the pulling on a thread And then there's the pulling on a thread on a sweater like I don't know I want to on a sweater like I don't know I want to on a sweater like I don't know I want to pull on the universe's thread and see pull on the universe's thread and see pull on the universe's thread and see what what is on the other side. I'm what what is on the other side. I'm what what is on the other side. I'm curious Jill, how do you approach that? curious Jill, how do you approach that? curious Jill, how do you approach that? Are you more of an explorer or are you Are you more of an explorer or are you Are you more of an explorer or are you more of a solver? more of a solver? more of a solver? >> Both both ways. Both ways. Sometimes I I >> Both both ways. Both ways. Sometimes I I >> Both both ways. Both ways. Sometimes I I have a problem that I find very have a problem that I find very have a problem that I find very interesting and I work and work on it interesting and I work and work on it interesting and I work and work on it and bring my students to work with them and bring my students to work with them and bring my students to work with them with me and sometimes we manage to find with me and sometimes we manage to find with me and sometimes we manage to find an answer sometimes not. But at other an answer sometimes not. But at other an answer sometimes not. But at other times for my most important discoveries times for my most important discoveries times for my most important discoveries with Charlie and others um it was both with Charlie and others um it was both with Charlie and others um it was both complete serendipity. We were not complete serendipity. We were not complete serendipity. We were not looking for anything and just fell fell looking for anything and just fell fell looking for anything and just fell fell on our lap like quantum teleportation. on our lap like quantum teleportation. on our lap like quantum teleportation. We were not trying to solve qual to we We were not trying to solve qual to we We were not trying to solve qual to we were not trying to find a way to to do were not trying to find a way to to do were not trying to find a way to to do what is now known as teleportation what is now known as teleportation what is now known as teleportation because of course that's impossible. We because of course that's impossible. We because of course that's impossible. We were working on something else and and were working on something else and and were working on something else and and the solution that came for the other the solution that came for the other the solution that came for the other problem was oh listen quantum problem was oh listen quantum problem was oh listen quantum teleportation and uh so complete teleportation and uh so complete teleportation and uh so complete complete serendipity complete serendipity complete serendipity and same thing for uh and same thing for uh and same thing for uh quantum cryptography. It was also quantum cryptography. It was also quantum cryptography. It was also serendipity that Charlie swam swam up to serendipity that Charlie swam swam up to serendipity that Charlie swam swam up to me and that we started talking uh and

me and that we started talking uh and me and that we started talking uh and and then we started working having ideas and then we started working having ideas and then we started working having ideas on how how to proceed further and and on how how to proceed further and and on how how to proceed further and and get more and more interesting ideas get more and more interesting ideas get more and more interesting ideas along the lines that we set up along the lines that we set up along the lines that we set up initially. But there was no it was not initially. But there was no it was not initially. But there was no it was not that I I thought I said well let's try that I I thought I said well let's try that I I thought I said well let's try to find a way to use uh these ideas for to find a way to use uh these ideas for to find a way to use uh these ideas for cryptography. It it it when we as you as cryptography. It it it when we as you as cryptography. It it it when we as you as you said you was putting the thread and you said you was putting the thread and you said you was putting the thread and it it appeared by itself. it it appeared by itself. it it appeared by itself. >> I very much rely on serendipity >> I very much rely on serendipity >> I very much rely on serendipity but also sometimes I have a pet problem but also sometimes I have a pet problem but also sometimes I have a pet problem I work on it and sometimes not very not I work on it and sometimes not very not I work on it and sometimes not very not so often I get to find a solution. so often I get to find a solution. so often I get to find a solution. Um, Charles, some people have said when Um, Charles, some people have said when Um, Charles, some people have said when they have invented something, whether it they have invented something, whether it they have invented something, whether it be a protocol or a way of thinking, that be a protocol or a way of thinking, that be a protocol or a way of thinking, that they didn't invent anything, they in they didn't invent anything, they in they didn't invent anything, they in fact discovered it or uncovered it. It fact discovered it or uncovered it. It fact discovered it or uncovered it. It was kind of the theory that the was kind of the theory that the was kind of the theory that the information is out there. It just needs information is out there. It just needs information is out there. It just needs to be observed and then written down. to be observed and then written down. to be observed and then written down. Were you two inventing these protocols Were you two inventing these protocols Were you two inventing these protocols or discovering them?

or discovering them? or discovering them? >> Uh, that's a silly question. >> Uh, that's a silly question. >> Uh, that's a silly question. >> Okay, thank you for that, sir. >> Okay, thank you for that, sir. >> Okay, thank you for that, sir. Is that truly a silly question? Is that Is that truly a silly question? Is that Is that truly a silly question? Is that an inappropriate question? Because I an inappropriate question? Because I an inappropriate question? Because I feel like you accept the laws of feel like you accept the laws of feel like you accept the laws of >> it's not my it's not my favorite silly >> it's not my it's not my favorite silly >> it's not my it's not my favorite silly question, but it's like saying, "Oh, if question, but it's like saying, "Oh, if question, but it's like saying, "Oh, if the if if the world runs according to the if if the world runs according to the if if the world runs according to laws that are mathematical, could it be laws that are mathematical, could it be laws that are mathematical, could it be that we're just in a computer simulation that we're just in a computer simulation that we're just in a computer simulation of the world?" of the world?" of the world?" >> That's not super. >> That's not super. >> That's not super. >> It's it's it's a question. It's it's >> It's it's it's a question. It's it's >> It's it's it's a question. It's it's it's along the same lines as whether it's along the same lines as whether it's along the same lines as whether that the the tree that falls down in the that the the tree that falls down in the that the the tree that falls down in the forest doesn't make a sound unless forest doesn't make a sound unless forest doesn't make a sound unless there's somebody here hears it. Okay, I there's somebody here hears it. Okay, I there's somebody here hears it. Okay, I I agree that the last one is silly, but I agree that the last one is silly, but I agree that the last one is silly, but not the first one. One of my one of my not the first one. One of my one of my not the first one. One of my one of my favorite papers of mine is all about the favorite papers of mine is all about the favorite papers of mine is all about the simulation question. Do we live in a simulation question. Do we live in a simulation question. Do we live in a computer simulation? And I'm very proud computer simulation? And I'm very proud computer simulation? And I'm very proud of that paper which I published in the of that paper which I published in the of that paper which I published in the proceedings society of London. Well, why proceedings society of London. Well, why proceedings society of London. Well, why why don't you just say that we live in why don't you just say that we live in why don't you just say that we live in the equivalence class of of a possible the equivalence class of of a possible the equivalence class of of a possible real world and then all of the real world and then all of the real world and then all of the simulations of it and that's all we simulations of it and that's all we simulations of it and that's all we could say about it scientifically could say about it scientifically could say about it scientifically >> as as opposed to in superposition.

>> as as opposed to in superposition. >> as as opposed to in superposition. >> As opposed to what? >> As opposed to what? >> As opposed to what? >> In superp position. >> In superp position. >> In superp position. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I uh I do appreciate both of your uh >> I uh I do appreciate both of your uh >> I uh I do appreciate both of your uh your perspectives. When I do an your perspectives. When I do an your perspectives. When I do an interview, I'm always hoping someone interview, I'm always hoping someone interview, I'm always hoping someone will say, "Oh, that's a good question. will say, "Oh, that's a good question. will say, "Oh, that's a good question. That's a thoughtful question. Uh I'm I That's a thoughtful question. Uh I'm I That's a thoughtful question. Uh I'm I think that's a silly question. think that's a silly question. think that's a silly question. >> Well, you're going to get the opposite >> Well, you're going to get the opposite >> Well, you're going to get the opposite response from us some of the times. response from us some of the times. response from us some of the times. >> Well, you won't know. You don't know >> Well, you won't know. You don't know >> Well, you won't know. You don't know until you observe it. So, I appreciate until you observe it. So, I appreciate until you observe it. So, I appreciate uh I appreciate your honesty in that. I uh I appreciate your honesty in that. I uh I appreciate your honesty in that. I just I'm curious though because there's just I'm curious though because there's just I'm curious though because there's there's an enormous gap between the there's an enormous gap between the there's an enormous gap between the elegance of quantum information theory elegance of quantum information theory elegance of quantum information theory in its theoretical sense and the in its theoretical sense and the in its theoretical sense and the engineering required to realize it at engineering required to realize it at engineering required to realize it at scale. And I'm trying to figure out how scale. And I'm trying to figure out how scale. And I'm trying to figure out how that how those jumps happen. Well, I'd that how those jumps happen. Well, I'd that how those jumps happen. Well, I'd like to draw your attention to something like to draw your attention to something like to draw your attention to something else, which is aside from looking at else, which is aside from looking at else, which is aside from looking at things things things just because they're interesting. just because they're interesting. just because they're interesting. There's fascinating. There's fascinating. There's fascinating. >> There was something that that drew me to >> There was something that that drew me to >> There was something that that drew me to these questions when I first heard about these questions when I first heard about these questions when I first heard about them from my late uh colleague and them from my late uh colleague and them from my late uh colleague and classmate Steven Weezner.

classmate Steven Weezner. classmate Steven Weezner. >> Mhm. which seemed intrinsically >> Mhm. which seemed intrinsically >> Mhm. which seemed intrinsically interesting and it caught Gil right away interesting and it caught Gil right away interesting and it caught Gil right away pointing to something that the founders pointing to something that the founders pointing to something that the founders of uh information processing namely the of uh information processing namely the of uh information processing namely the manon and touring manon and touring manon and touring left out. left out. left out. >> Mhm. Of course, they they left out a lot >> Mhm. Of course, they they left out a lot >> Mhm. Of course, they they left out a lot of things deliberately of things deliberately of things deliberately uh like whether the message was carried uh like whether the message was carried uh like whether the message was carried by by by punched card holes or or radio waves. punched card holes or or radio waves. punched card holes or or radio waves. But what I saw was that this example But what I saw was that this example But what I saw was that this example from Weezner of multiplexing from Weezner of multiplexing from Weezner of multiplexing >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> two messages into a form from which the >> two messages into a form from which the >> two messages into a form from which the receiver receiver receiver could receive one but in doing that could receive one but in doing that could receive one but in doing that would destroy the other. And then of would destroy the other. And then of would destroy the other. And then of course for could could choose which one course for could could choose which one course for could could choose which one to receive. to receive. to receive. >> Yeah. Could choose either one and the >> Yeah. Could choose either one and the >> Yeah. Could choose either one and the even the receiver wouldn't know. Uh the even the receiver wouldn't know. Uh the even the receiver wouldn't know. Uh the sender wouldn't know. But so this said sender wouldn't know. But so this said sender wouldn't know. But so this said this seemed to say to me of course the this seemed to say to me of course the this seemed to say to me of course the in information technologists had a in information technologists had a in information technologists had a tremendous chip on their shoulder. They tremendous chip on their shoulder. They tremendous chip on their shoulder. They thought they because they had thought they because they had thought they because they had revolutionized the world they pretty revolutionized the world they pretty revolutionized the world they pretty much understood everything about much understood everything about much understood everything about information. And this was a physicist, information. And this was a physicist, information. And this was a physicist, this this colleague of mine who said, this this colleague of mine who said, this this colleague of mine who said, "Well, wait a minute. Some of the "Well, wait a minute. Some of the "Well, wait a minute. Some of the information doesn't really behave that information doesn't really behave that information doesn't really behave that way. You can't copy it or if you try to way. You can't copy it or if you try to way. You can't copy it or if you try to read it, it'll disturb it." And one of read it, it'll disturb it." And one of read it, it'll disturb it." And one of the things that you can do from that is the things that you can do from that is the things that you can do from that is to put this seeming disadvantage to an

to put this seeming disadvantage to an to put this seeming disadvantage to an advantage by making this sort of advantage by making this sort of advantage by making this sort of self-destroying multiplex message. Of self-destroying multiplex message. Of self-destroying multiplex message. Of course, I guess we have social apps that course, I guess we have social apps that course, I guess we have social apps that promise to erase the message after you promise to erase the message after you promise to erase the message after you Yeah. You just have to trust them to do Yeah. You just have to trust them to do Yeah. You just have to trust them to do that. Uh [clears throat] so this when I that. Uh [clears throat] so this when I that. Uh [clears throat] so this when I first heard about it, I said, you know, first heard about it, I said, you know, first heard about it, I said, you know, there's a very fascinating thing about there's a very fascinating thing about there's a very fascinating thing about information. I wonder if any of these information. I wonder if any of these information. I wonder if any of these information theory the theory people are information theory the theory people are information theory the theory people are interested in it. And I tried to explain interested in it. And I tried to explain interested in it. And I tried to explain it to some people. And Jill and I and it to some people. And Jill and I and it to some people. And Jill and I and not too much later tried to explain it not too much later tried to explain it not too much later tried to explain it to some uh professional quantum optics to some uh professional quantum optics to some uh professional quantum optics people and they said, "Oh, you know, you people and they said, "Oh, you know, you people and they said, "Oh, you know, you guys just don't understand what you're guys just don't understand what you're guys just don't understand what you're talking about." talking about." talking about." So there was a bit of res arrogance on So there was a bit of res arrogance on So there was a bit of res arrogance on both sides uh which we which we helped both sides uh which we which we helped both sides uh which we which we helped overcome when when when brought the two overcome when when when brought the two overcome when when when brought the two fields together. Hey friends, it's Scott fields together. Hey friends, it's Scott fields together. Hey friends, it's Scott and I want to give a shout out to one of and I want to give a shout out to one of and I want to give a shout out to one of our new sponsors, SER API. That's s API. our new sponsors, SER API. That's s API. our new sponsors, SER API. That's s API. It's a web search API that gives It's a web search API that gives It's a web search API that gives developers real time structured access developers real time structured access developers real time structured access to search engine results. Works great to search engine results. Works great to search engine results. Works great with AI agents and AI assistants. I with AI agents and AI assistants. I with AI agents and AI assistants. I actually use it on my own personal actually use it on my own personal actually use it on my own personal OpenClaw instance. You've got usage for OpenClaw instance. You've got usage for OpenClaw instance. You've got usage for research tools, market intelligent research tools, market intelligent research tools, market intelligent platforms, rag workflows, anything that platforms, rag workflows, anything that platforms, rag workflows, anything that needs fresh information from the web.

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minutes for 250 free searches a month. >> I'm curious, have um again I'm hoping >> I'm curious, have um again I'm hoping >> I'm curious, have um again I'm hoping this is now now every question is this is now now every question is this is now now every question is potentially a silly question. So, I've potentially a silly question. So, I've potentially a silly question. So, I've got a little bit of analysis paralysis, got a little bit of analysis paralysis, got a little bit of analysis paralysis, but I'm curious, have you now in in the but I'm curious, have you now in in the but I'm curious, have you now in in the 2020s spent time with a quantum machine 2020s spent time with a quantum machine 2020s spent time with a quantum machine and thought back to the we were thinking and thought back to the we were thinking and thought back to the we were thinking about this in the ' 70s, '8s, and '90s, about this in the ' 70s, '8s, and '90s, about this in the ' 70s, '8s, and '90s, and now here I'm looking at the thing. and now here I'm looking at the thing. and now here I'm looking at the thing. I'm just curious about the scope of this I'm just curious about the scope of this I'm just curious about the scope of this amount of time that has passed and if amount of time that has passed and if amount of time that has passed and if you've actually been able to spend time you've actually been able to spend time you've actually been able to spend time with physical realizations of things with physical realizations of things with physical realizations of things that you thought were theories in 1993. that you thought were theories in 1993. that you thought were theories in 1993. >> Well, better than that. We built the >> Well, better than that. We built the >> Well, better than that. We built the first first first >> the theories are still there. >> the theories are still there. >> the theories are still there. >> Yeah. Sorry, >> Yeah. Sorry, >> Yeah. Sorry, >> I said better than that. >> I said better than that. >> I said better than that. >> Well, we've spent both of us spend a lot >> Well, we've spent both of us spend a lot >> Well, we've spent both of us spend a lot of time with implementations of quantum of time with implementations of quantum of time with implementations of quantum cryptography. cryptography. cryptography. >> Of course. Of course. and with with very >> Of course. Of course. and with with very >> Of course. Of course. and with with very the very rudimentary quantum computers the very rudimentary quantum computers the very rudimentary quantum computers that they've been able to construct so that they've been able to construct so that they've been able to construct so far. far. far. And but I think we're not discouraged And but I think we're not discouraged And but I think we're not discouraged that it's it's a big slo and it takes a that it's it's a big slo and it takes a that it's it's a big slo and it takes a lot of engineering work.

lot of engineering work. lot of engineering work. you were going to say you were going to say you were going to say >> well that not not only have we been in >> well that not not only have we been in >> well that not not only have we been in contact with physical realizations of contact with physical realizations of contact with physical realizations of our ideas but we actually built the very our ideas but we actually built the very our ideas but we actually built the very first prototype first prototype first prototype >> for right first >> for right first >> for right first >> indeed for cryptography about 5 years >> indeed for cryptography about 5 years >> indeed for cryptography about 5 years after inventing the protocol and exactly after inventing the protocol and exactly after inventing the protocol and exactly 10 years after meeting in the ocean 10 years after meeting in the ocean 10 years after meeting in the ocean >> right >> right >> right >> um and and but other than that uh we're >> um and and but other than that uh we're >> um and and but other than that uh we're not Charlie and I are pure theoreticians not Charlie and I are pure theoreticians not Charlie and I are pure theoreticians we we're not experimental physicists. Um we we're not experimental physicists. Um we we're not experimental physicists. Um but I have kept in contact with some but I have kept in contact with some but I have kept in contact with some experimental physicists who are experimental physicists who are experimental physicists who are implementing these ideas on a large implementing these ideas on a large implementing these ideas on a large scale. Starting with Nicol in Geneva who scale. Starting with Nicol in Geneva who scale. Starting with Nicol in Geneva who was the first person to implement was the first person to implement was the first person to implement quantum cryptography over tens of quantum cryptography over tens of quantum cryptography over tens of kilometers of real distance not just not kilometers of real distance not just not kilometers of real distance not just not just a a coil a spool with with fiber just a a coil a spool with with fiber just a a coil a spool with with fiber optics 10 km long but then Alice and Bob optics 10 km long but then Alice and Bob optics 10 km long but then Alice and Bob are next to each other. But but the real are next to each other. But but the real are next to each other. But but the real physical distance the first time was physical distance the first time was physical distance the first time was Nicolola Jiz who did that under under Nicolola Jiz who did that under under Nicolola Jiz who did that under under Lake Geneva to link Geneva with Neo and Lake Geneva to link Geneva with Neo and Lake Geneva to link Geneva with Neo and later with Loausan. Um and and and more later with Loausan. Um and and and more later with Loausan. Um and and and more recently in China there's been recently in China there's been recently in China there's been extraordinary work uh practical work extraordinary work uh practical work extraordinary work uh practical work that is for implementing quantum that is for implementing quantum that is for implementing quantum cryptography on a large scale. they have cryptography on a large scale. they have cryptography on a large scale. they have 10,000 kilometer of what they call a 10,000 kilometer of what they call a 10,000 kilometer of what they call a backbone of quantum cryptography which backbone of quantum cryptography which backbone of quantum cryptography which is fully integrated with their space is fully integrated with their space is fully integrated with their space version. So they they have satellites version. So they they have satellites version. So they they have satellites and they can do quantum crypto between a

and they can do quantum crypto between a and they can do quantum crypto between a satellite and the backbone and and and satellite and the backbone and and and satellite and the backbone and and and back and and so at the moment in China back and and so at the moment in China back and and so at the moment in China it's it's it's amazing how how well they it's it's it's amazing how how well they it's it's it's amazing how how well they are equipped in implementing our ideas are equipped in implementing our ideas are equipped in implementing our ideas for quantum cryptography there are last for quantum cryptography there are last for quantum cryptography there are last I heard 5 million users already of I heard 5 million users already of I heard 5 million users already of quantum China quantum China quantum China >> now you were just there is that correct >> now you were just there is that correct >> now you were just there is that correct sir sir sir >> yes yes yes I I was there just few weeks >> yes yes yes I I was there just few weeks >> yes yes yes I I was there just few weeks ago that's right but I did not visit ago that's right but I did not visit ago that's right but I did not visit their laboratories. I it it it was their laboratories. I it it it was their laboratories. I it it it was I I gave talks and and I met and I and I I I gave talks and and I met and I and I I I gave talks and and I met and I and I I I spent several days with the person I I spent several days with the person I I spent several days with the person who really the chief the the top leader who really the chief the the top leader who really the chief the the top leader in experimental quantum crypto crypto in experimental quantum crypto crypto in experimental quantum crypto crypto namely Yane Pan and um it was very very namely Yane Pan and um it was very very namely Yane Pan and um it was very very pleasant uh very pleasant time with with pleasant uh very pleasant time with with pleasant uh very pleasant time with with Yane. We discussed some of his newest Yane. We discussed some of his newest Yane. We discussed some of his newest achievements but but we did that in the achievements but but we did that in the achievements but but we did that in the desert gooby desert uh riding camels. Uh desert gooby desert uh riding camels. Uh desert gooby desert uh riding camels. Uh so so we didn't get to actually I didn't so so we didn't get to actually I didn't so so we didn't get to actually I didn't get to see the apparatus or any anything get to see the apparatus or any anything get to see the apparatus or any anything but if I saw it they were no different but if I saw it they were no different but if I saw it they were no different because I would not understand it where because I would not understand it where because I would not understand it where whether I I understand the theory and whether I I understand the theory and whether I I understand the theory and and I love talking to people including and I love talking to people including and I love talking to people including experimentalists [clears throat] experimentalists [clears throat] experimentalists [clears throat] about the theory.

about the theory. about the theory. >> Right. So then like the uh the >> Right. So then like the uh the >> Right. So then like the uh the satellites, the quantum experiments at satellites, the quantum experiments at satellites, the quantum experiments at space scale, these are all 10 years old space scale, these are all 10 years old space scale, these are all 10 years old now. So these quantum key distribution now. So these quantum key distribution now. So these quantum key distribution experiments that were decoy state uh experiments that were decoy state uh experiments that were decoy state uh BB-84 protocol were deployed over 1,000 BB-84 protocol were deployed over 1,000 BB-84 protocol were deployed over 1,000 km. km. km. >> Oh well, yes, that's correct. That's >> Oh well, yes, that's correct. That's >> Oh well, yes, that's correct. That's right. The first space experiment done right. The first space experiment done right. The first space experiment done with satellite misuse was in 2017, I with satellite misuse was in 2017, I with satellite misuse was in 2017, I think. think. think. >> Mhm. Um, so yes, it's 10 years old, but >> Mhm. Um, so yes, it's 10 years old, but >> Mhm. Um, so yes, it's 10 years old, but they've improved tremendously since they've improved tremendously since they've improved tremendously since then. They've built smaller, better, and then. They've built smaller, better, and then. They've built smaller, better, and smaller satellites, more of them, uh, smaller satellites, more of them, uh, smaller satellites, more of them, uh, smaller and smaller receiving stations smaller and smaller receiving stations smaller and smaller receiving stations back on Earth. Uh, in in the the back on Earth. Uh, in in the the back on Earth. Uh, in in the the original version, you would need several original version, you would need several original version, you would need several months to build a a receiving station. months to build a a receiving station. months to build a a receiving station. Now, now they they have one in a truck Now, now they they have one in a truck Now, now they they have one in a truck and they can deploy it in hours. They and they can deploy it in hours. They and they can deploy it in hours. They can bring it anywhere they want and can bring it anywhere they want and can bring it anywhere they want and deploy it in hours. uh it's um enormous deploy it in hours. uh it's um enormous deploy it in hours. uh it's um enormous progress on in the field as there is progress on in the field as there is progress on in the field as there is enormous progress in the for the enormous progress in the for the enormous progress in the for the building a quantum computer about which building a quantum computer about which building a quantum computer about which we haven't really talked so far. So we haven't really talked so far. So we haven't really talked so far. So quantum computers are really fascinating quantum computers are really fascinating quantum computers are really fascinating but but that that that too is something but but that that that too is something but but that that that too is something which uh for which there's been enormous which uh for which there's been enormous which uh for which there's been enormous progress technological progress in in progress technological progress in in progress technological progress in in the past few years. I have heard uh the past few years. I have heard uh the past few years. I have heard uh people I think I would say that the rank people I think I would say that the rank people I think I would say that the rank and file software engineer the kind of and file software engineer the kind of and file software engineer the kind of people that I talk to every day are not people that I talk to every day are not people that I talk to every day are not thinking about post-quantum cryptography thinking about post-quantum cryptography thinking about post-quantum cryptography but there is a there is a a growing

but there is a there is a a growing but there is a there is a a growing group of people who have deep concern group of people who have deep concern group of people who have deep concern that this is something that's going to that this is something that's going to that this is something that's going to happen and it's going to happen very happen and it's going to happen very happen and it's going to happen very quickly. I'm curious where where should quickly. I'm curious where where should quickly. I'm curious where where should my where should I where should my my where should I where should my my where should I where should my feelings be around postquantum ctography feelings be around postquantum ctography feelings be around postquantum ctography but somewhere between panic and but somewhere between panic and but somewhere between panic and enthusiasm enthusiasm enthusiasm >> or panic uh total panic but um you say >> or panic uh total panic but um you say >> or panic uh total panic but um you say postquantum cryptography maybe you don't postquantum cryptography maybe you don't postquantum cryptography maybe you don't know maybe you do the difference between know maybe you do the difference between know maybe you do the difference between postquantum cryptography and quantum postquantum cryptography and quantum postquantum cryptography and quantum cryptography cryptography cryptography >> that's a great point >> that's a great point >> that's a great point >> very different things >> very different things >> very different things >> quantum cryptography is what and I >> quantum cryptography is what and I >> quantum cryptography is what and I invented it 1984 83 actually uh by which invented it 1984 83 actually uh by which invented it 1984 83 actually uh by which we use the laws of physics to transmit we use the laws of physics to transmit we use the laws of physics to transmit to establish a secret key that is uh to establish a secret key that is uh to establish a secret key that is uh unbreakable by the laws of physics as unbreakable by the laws of physics as unbreakable by the laws of physics as long as as as the apparatus is built long as as as the apparatus is built long as as as the apparatus is built correctly which is not an obvious thing correctly which is not an obvious thing correctly which is not an obvious thing to do. Whereas what was known as to do. Whereas what was known as to do. Whereas what was known as postquantum cryptography is an attempt postquantum cryptography is an attempt postquantum cryptography is an attempt to uh use purely classical techniques to to uh use purely classical techniques to to uh use purely classical techniques to achieve the same goals as what RSA and achieve the same goals as what RSA and achieve the same goals as what RSA and DV helman and the current the current DV helman and the current the current DV helman and the current the current cryptographic infrastructure which would cryptographic infrastructure which would cryptographic infrastructure which would completely fall down fall apart when a completely fall down fall apart when a completely fall down fall apart when a quantum computer is available. So people quantum computer is available. So people quantum computer is available. So people are trying to scramble to find different are trying to scramble to find different are trying to scramble to find different ways to to achieve the same benefits by ways to to achieve the same benefits by ways to to achieve the same benefits by purely classical means but that would be purely classical means but that would be purely classical means but that would be unbreakable by quantum computers. Uh unbreakable by quantum computers. Uh unbreakable by quantum computers. Uh since we know that the current since we know that the current since we know that the current infrastructure is infrastructure is infrastructure is vulnerable. The trouble with this is vulnerable. The trouble with this is vulnerable. The trouble with this is that a postquantum cryptography is uh

that a postquantum cryptography is uh that a postquantum cryptography is uh trying to build something to design trying to build something to design trying to build something to design something for which we have absolutely something for which we have absolutely something for which we have absolutely no idea how we can even start to think no idea how we can even start to think no idea how we can even start to think about how to prove it's secure. And so about how to prove it's secure. And so about how to prove it's secure. And so all of this postquantum crypto by all of this postquantum crypto by all of this postquantum crypto by definition at the for by definition can definition at the for by definition can definition at the for by definition can be broken again with with unlimited be broken again with with unlimited be broken again with with unlimited computing power whereas quantum crypto computing power whereas quantum crypto computing power whereas quantum crypto cannot. And moreover, postponum crypto cannot. And moreover, postponum crypto cannot. And moreover, postponum crypto is based on beliefs. It's it's really is based on beliefs. It's it's really is based on beliefs. It's it's really wishful thinking that what they're wishful thinking that what they're wishful thinking that what they're inventing will indeed be be unbreakable inventing will indeed be be unbreakable inventing will indeed be be unbreakable with a quantum computer. What could with a quantum computer. What could with a quantum computer. What could happen is that not only is it vulnerable happen is that not only is it vulnerable happen is that not only is it vulnerable to quantum computer attack, it could to quantum computer attack, it could to quantum computer attack, it could even fall against a classical computer even fall against a classical computer even fall against a classical computer because what is used in postquantum because what is used in postquantum because what is used in postquantum crypto or problems that are sort of new crypto or problems that are sort of new crypto or problems that are sort of new that have not really been studied for that have not really been studied for that have not really been studied for centuries was RSA was based on factoring centuries was RSA was based on factoring centuries was RSA was based on factoring which which was a very old problem but which which was a very old problem but which which was a very old problem but it was good reasons to believe that it was good reasons to believe that it was good reasons to believe that factoring is hard and big big surprise factoring is hard and big big surprise factoring is hard and big big surprise that quantum computers can can break that quantum computers can can break that quantum computers can can break that whereas the postquantum crypto that that whereas the postquantum crypto that that whereas the postquantum crypto that is being developed. There's absolutely is being developed. There's absolutely is being developed. There's absolutely no reason to believe that any of that no reason to believe that any of that no reason to believe that any of that offers any security. So the answer is offers any security. So the answer is offers any security. So the answer is yes.

yes. yes. >> So I would say not absolutely no reason. >> So I would say not absolutely no reason. >> So I would say not absolutely no reason. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Because they they look for things that >> Because they they look for things that >> Because they they look for things that that look different enough from that look different enough from that look different enough from factoring that that if for example uh as factoring that that if for example uh as factoring that that if for example uh as a lot of people suspect uh one-way a lot of people suspect uh one-way a lot of people suspect uh one-way functions still exist functions still exist functions still exist uh and that so P is different from NP. uh and that so P is different from NP. uh and that so P is different from NP. That could also happen. We don't know. I That could also happen. We don't know. I That could also happen. We don't know. I mean, all all classical cryptography mean, all all classical cryptography mean, all all classical cryptography except for the one-time pad and quantum except for the one-time pad and quantum except for the one-time pad and quantum cryptography cryptography cryptography are provably insecure. are provably insecure. are provably insecure. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But may be practically secure if certain >> But may be practically secure if certain >> But may be practically secure if certain hard problems are really hard. Well, now hard problems are really hard. Well, now hard problems are really hard. Well, now factoring used to be thought to be a factoring used to be thought to be a factoring used to be thought to be a hard problem, but it's not hard anymore hard problem, but it's not hard anymore hard problem, but it's not hard anymore for a quantum computer. So the quantum for a quantum computer. So the quantum for a quantum computer. So the quantum in in the phrase in the what you might in in the phrase in the what you might in in the phrase in the what you might call the marketing phrase postquantum call the marketing phrase postquantum call the marketing phrase postquantum cryptography is postquantum computer cryptography is postquantum computer cryptography is postquantum computer cryptography thus postquantum cryptography thus postquantum cryptography thus postquantum cryptography cryptography. The reason cryptography cryptography. The reason cryptography cryptography. The reason that our kind of quantum cryptography that our kind of quantum cryptography that our kind of quantum cryptography isn't a total solution is that a lot of isn't a total solution is that a lot of isn't a total solution is that a lot of nice things that you can do with the nice things that you can do with the nice things that you can do with the information infrastructure like digital information infrastructure like digital information infrastructure like digital signatures and well especially public signatures and well especially public signatures and well especially public key cryptography where people who have key cryptography where people who have key cryptography where people who have don't know each other at all can can don't know each other at all can can don't know each other at all can can make sure who they're talking to and make sure who they're talking to and make sure who they're talking to and that they're messengers. That's harder that they're messengers. That's harder that they're messengers. That's harder to do with with uh quantum cryptography to do with with uh quantum cryptography to do with with uh quantum cryptography uh with with absolute security.

uh with with absolute security. uh with with absolute security. >> Oh yeah, I see. Quantum cryptography >> Oh yeah, I see. Quantum cryptography >> Oh yeah, I see. Quantum cryptography solves the problem of secure solves the problem of secure solves the problem of secure communication. communication. communication. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But financial communication does not >> But financial communication does not >> But financial communication does not solve many other problems that solve many other problems that solve many other problems that >> postquantum crypto has a chance to solve >> postquantum crypto has a chance to solve >> postquantum crypto has a chance to solve even though we cannot prove it does. But even though we cannot prove it does. But even though we cannot prove it does. But but let me come back to should we panic. but let me come back to should we panic. but let me come back to should we panic. The the main reason to panic is not what The the main reason to panic is not what The the main reason to panic is not what I just said. It's much much worse. Uh I just said. It's much much worse. Uh I just said. It's much much worse. Uh but by the way when you ask if we should but by the way when you ask if we should but by the way when you ask if we should panic I should have jumped on it and panic I should have jumped on it and panic I should have jumped on it and said what a good question. said what a good question. said what a good question. That would have that would have made me That would have that would have made me That would have that would have made me feel better at this point. I'm sorry I feel better at this point. I'm sorry I feel better at this point. I'm sorry I didn't say it means but it is. didn't say it means but it is. didn't say it means but it is. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] So the reason we should panic the main So the reason we should panic the main So the reason we should panic the main reason is that it's known as the harvest reason is that it's known as the harvest reason is that it's known as the harvest now and decrypt later paradigm by which now and decrypt later paradigm by which now and decrypt later paradigm by which nothing prevents a an opponent of nothing prevents a an opponent of nothing prevents a an opponent of intercepting all crypted communications intercepting all crypted communications intercepting all crypted communications that go on the internet just copying that go on the internet just copying that go on the internet just copying them and and storing them and keeping them and and storing them and keeping them and and storing them and keeping them at home. So all this crypted them at home. So all this crypted them at home. So all this crypted information can be already stored information can be already stored information can be already stored somewhere probably is actually uh in the somewhere probably is actually uh in the somewhere probably is actually uh in the hands of a of would be opponents who are hands of a of would be opponents who are hands of a of would be opponents who are totally unable to decrypt it because totally unable to decrypt it because totally unable to decrypt it because they don't know how to break RSA yet.

they don't know how to break RSA yet. they don't know how to break RSA yet. But when whenever a quantum computer But when whenever a quantum computer But when whenever a quantum computer becomes available to them they can go becomes available to them they can go becomes available to them they can go back take it all out of storage and back take it all out of storage and back take it all out of storage and decrypt everything retroactively. In decrypt everything retroactively. In decrypt everything retroactively. In other words, because RSC and DVN were other words, because RSC and DVN were other words, because RSC and DVN were essentially the only crypto tools used essentially the only crypto tools used essentially the only crypto tools used ever since a little padlock appeared in ever since a little padlock appeared in ever since a little padlock appeared in your browser to make you believe that your browser to make you believe that your browser to make you believe that it's safe. Almost every communication it's safe. Almost every communication it's safe. Almost every communication from that time for tens and tens of from that time for tens and tens of from that time for tens and tens of years was encrypted using RSC or DV hand years was encrypted using RSC or DV hand years was encrypted using RSC or DV hand both of them were broken with a quantum both of them were broken with a quantum both of them were broken with a quantum computer. In other words, whenever the computer. In other words, whenever the computer. In other words, whenever the quantum computer becomes available, quantum computer becomes available, quantum computer becomes available, everything that has circulated on the everything that has circulated on the everything that has circulated on the internet becomes an open book internet becomes an open book internet becomes an open book retroactively. And worse, there's retroactively. And worse, there's retroactively. And worse, there's nothing you can do to prevent it because nothing you can do to prevent it because nothing you can do to prevent it because this crypted information is already in this crypted information is already in this crypted information is already in the hands of the opponent. You cannot the hands of the opponent. You cannot the hands of the opponent. You cannot take it away from them. You cannot take it away from them. You cannot take it away from them. You cannot prevent them from decryting prevent them from decryting prevent them from decryting retroactively. When you have a quantum retroactively. When you have a quantum retroactively. When you have a quantum computer, there's nothing, absolutely computer, there's nothing, absolutely computer, there's nothing, absolutely nothing you can do to save the past. All nothing you can do to save the past. All nothing you can do to save the past. All you can hope for is the future by using you can hope for is the future by using you can hope for is the future by using different techniques either quantum or different techniques either quantum or different techniques either quantum or postquantum crypto. And in case of postquantum crypto. And in case of postquantum crypto. And in case of postquantum crypto, you also have to postquantum crypto, you also have to postquantum crypto, you also have to have faith. Um but of course quantum have faith. Um but of course quantum have faith. Um but of course quantum crypto also you need faith for quantum crypto also you need faith for quantum crypto also you need faith for quantum crypto to be quantum crypto is proven crypto to be quantum crypto is proven crypto to be quantum crypto is proven secure absolutely secure events against secure absolutely secure events against secure absolutely secure events against an opponent with unlimited computing an opponent with unlimited computing an opponent with unlimited computing power and unlim unrestricted technology.

power and unlim unrestricted technology. power and unlim unrestricted technology. But it's proven secure under two But it's proven secure under two But it's proven secure under two conditions. One is that corner theory is conditions. One is that corner theory is conditions. One is that corner theory is correct and we don't know that. Uh and correct and we don't know that. Uh and correct and we don't know that. Uh and the other is is that it's implemented the other is is that it's implemented the other is is that it's implemented correctly which is hard to do. So in is correctly which is hard to do. So in is correctly which is hard to do. So in is perfect. So if it's to paraphrase and perfect. So if it's to paraphrase and perfect. So if it's to paraphrase and make sure that I'm understanding if post make sure that I'm understanding if post make sure that I'm understanding if post if postquantum cryptography as a if postquantum cryptography as a if postquantum cryptography as a softwarebased defense is going to ensure softwarebased defense is going to ensure softwarebased defense is going to ensure that today's classical communications that today's classical communications that today's classical communications will remain secure against future will remain secure against future will remain secure against future quantum computers while acknowledging quantum computers while acknowledging quantum computers while acknowledging that there's a significant window where that there's a significant window where that there's a significant window where we weren't doing any of that. we weren't doing any of that. we weren't doing any of that. >> No no no no no postquantum crypto uh if >> No no no no no postquantum crypto uh if >> No no no no no postquantum crypto uh if we switch from the current we switch from the current we switch from the current infrastructure to postquantum solutions infrastructure to postquantum solutions infrastructure to postquantum solutions >> Mhm. today and by the way would we take >> Mhm. today and by the way would we take >> Mhm. today and by the way would we take years to do that but if we switch today years to do that but if we switch today years to do that but if we switch today uh it would not in any way ensure safety uh it would not in any way ensure safety uh it would not in any way ensure safety in the future in the future in the future >> that was my question there's no >> that was my question there's no >> that was my question there's no guarantee guarantee guarantee >> nor safety of whatever will be encrypted >> nor safety of whatever will be encrypted >> nor safety of whatever will be encrypted between uh between that moment between uh between that moment between uh between that moment >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> to switch quantum to postquantum crypto >> to switch quantum to postquantum crypto >> to switch quantum to postquantum crypto uh and and a later time when perhaps uh and and a later time when perhaps uh and and a later time when perhaps someone finds out to break it. All of someone finds out to break it. All of someone finds out to break it. All of that can be broken retroactively in the that can be broken retroactively in the that can be broken retroactively in the same orbus now decrypt later paradigm same orbus now decrypt later paradigm same orbus now decrypt later paradigm and in fact the main advantage of and in fact the main advantage of and in fact the main advantage of quantum crypto uh in my eyes is not that quantum crypto uh in my eyes is not that quantum crypto uh in my eyes is not that is provably secure because it's not if is provably secure because it's not if is provably secure because it's not if it's not correctly the main advant of it's not correctly the main advant of it's not correctly the main advant of quantum crypto is that it's less subject quantum crypto is that it's less subject quantum crypto is that it's less subject to harvest now decrypt later attack if to harvest now decrypt later attack if to harvest now decrypt later attack if and and if an easedropper uh has found a

and and if an easedropper uh has found a and and if an easedropper uh has found a way to break into to to exploit some way to break into to to exploit some way to break into to to exploit some weakness in the implementation which weakness in the implementation which weakness in the implementation which allows them to to obtain the key without allows them to to obtain the key without allows them to to obtain the key without being detected and that's not impossible being detected and that's not impossible being detected and that's not impossible because if there are imperfections in because if there are imperfections in because if there are imperfections in the implementation but if an eved the implementation but if an eved the implementation but if an eved dropper finds a way to do that he needs dropper finds a way to do that he needs dropper finds a way to do that he needs to apply it while the communication to apply it while the communication to apply it while the communication takes place there's nothing left for the takes place there's nothing left for the takes place there's nothing left for the eavesdropper to work on afterwards so eavesdropper to work on afterwards so eavesdropper to work on afterwards so the real the real thing about quantum the real the real thing about quantum the real the real thing about quantum crypto that we can be proud of is and crypto that we can be proud of is and crypto that we can be proud of is and here I quote Norbert Lutinhouse uh from here I quote Norbert Lutinhouse uh from here I quote Norbert Lutinhouse uh from uh what was Waterloo uh uh what was Waterloo uh uh what was Waterloo uh when you use quantum crypto and quote when you use quantum crypto and quote when you use quantum crypto and quote now I quote liten house the key will now I quote liten house the key will now I quote liten house the key will remain as safe for eternity or forever remain as safe for eternity or forever remain as safe for eternity or forever as it was immediately after transmission as it was immediately after transmission as it was immediately after transmission >> I see I see >> I see I see >> I see I see >> I really think of quantum crypto's main >> I really think of quantum crypto's main >> I really think of quantum crypto's main advantage that there's no advantage that there's no advantage that there's no no possibility for bad people to store no possibility for bad people to store no possibility for bad people to store anything in order to decrypt later. If anything in order to decrypt later. If anything in order to decrypt later. If if they find in 10 years they find a way if they find in 10 years they find a way if they find in 10 years they find a way they find oh oh there was a weakness in they find oh oh there was a weakness in they find oh oh there was a weakness in the implementation of that that that the implementation of that that that the implementation of that that that these people used 10 years ago but it's these people used 10 years ago but it's these people used 10 years ago but it's too late. No use to that.

too late. No use to that. too late. No use to that. >> Interesting. That makes me I when you >> Interesting. That makes me I when you >> Interesting. That makes me I when you were saying that it popped into my head were saying that it popped into my head were saying that it popped into my head that the universe has created a one-time that the universe has created a one-time that the universe has created a one-time pad for us to use and uh and it will be pad for us to use and uh and it will be pad for us to use and uh and it will be influented one day. I I saw you moving influented one day. I I saw you moving influented one day. I I saw you moving there Charles. Did you have something there Charles. Did you have something there Charles. Did you have something that you wanted to add? Oh, so speaking that you wanted to add? Oh, so speaking that you wanted to add? Oh, so speaking [clears throat] of the of the the panic [clears throat] of the of the the panic [clears throat] of the of the the panic now and decrypt later approach, one now and decrypt later approach, one now and decrypt later approach, one thing that we can do about the thing that we can do about the thing that we can do about the insecurity of the stuff that's already insecurity of the stuff that's already insecurity of the stuff that's already been harvested, been harvested, been harvested, of course it can be used if if if some of course it can be used if if if some of course it can be used if if if some of our communications are of uh of our communications are of uh of our communications are of uh diplomatic or military interest, they diplomatic or military interest, they diplomatic or military interest, they can be used for purposes of of national competition and purposes of of national competition and security and so on. But they can also be security and so on. But they can also be security and so on. But they can also be used for blackmail like if you said used for blackmail like if you said used for blackmail like if you said something embarrassing in an email at something embarrassing in an email at something embarrassing in an email at one time. one time. one time. And we can't destroy this information And we can't destroy this information And we can't destroy this information feasibly.

feasibly. feasibly. But what we could do is publish multiple But what we could do is publish multiple But what we could do is publish multiple additional copies of it so that the the additional copies of it so that the the additional copies of it so that the the price that the black mailers will charge price that the black mailers will charge price that the black mailers will charge gets depleted by an excessive supply and gets depleted by an excessive supply and gets depleted by an excessive supply and you don't have to pay so much uh to get you don't have to pay so much uh to get you don't have to pay so much uh to get them to not they have less of a no one them to not they have less of a no one them to not they have less of a no one black mailer can threaten you as badly. black mailer can threaten you as badly. black mailer can threaten you as badly. So you say you know why it's it's going So you say you know why it's it's going So you say you know why it's it's going to be published anyway. uh you know, to be published anyway. uh you know, to be published anyway. uh you know, make my day instead of okay, here's your make my day instead of okay, here's your make my day instead of okay, here's your money. money. money. >> There's going to be a lot of very >> There's going to be a lot of very >> There's going to be a lot of very interesting ethical and societal interesting ethical and societal interesting ethical and societal questions that will be explored when uh questions that will be explored when uh questions that will be explored when uh when all of this stuff happens. Uh I'm when all of this stuff happens. Uh I'm when all of this stuff happens. Uh I'm curious when we say that this is curious when we say that this is curious when we say that this is emergent and that it's coming soon. Uh emergent and that it's coming soon. Uh emergent and that it's coming soon. Uh I've long felt that everything is soon. I've long felt that everything is soon. I've long felt that everything is soon. It's just 5 years from now. It's always It's just 5 years from now. It's always It's just 5 years from now. It's always 5 years from now. So just n plus 5. Uh 5 years from now. So just n plus 5. Uh 5 years from now. So just n plus 5. Uh do we have a sense of how imminent these do we have a sense of how imminent these do we have a sense of how imminent these things are going to happen or is it one things are going to happen or is it one things are going to happen or is it one of those things where we're going to of those things where we're going to of those things where we're going to overestimate how long it happens and overestimate how long it happens and overestimate how long it happens and underestimate the uh the impact?

underestimate the uh the impact? underestimate the uh the impact? >> You're talking about having a quantum >> You're talking about having a quantum >> You're talking about having a quantum computer powerful enough to break computer powerful enough to break computer powerful enough to break cryptography cryptography cryptography >> and and and affect my life and the life >> and and and affect my life and the life >> and and and affect my life and the life of people who do not understand such of people who do not understand such of people who do not understand such things but rather see its effects. things but rather see its effects. things but rather see its effects. >> Well, it should affect your life >> Well, it should affect your life >> Well, it should affect your life already. already. already. >> Okay. because of what I explained even >> Okay. because of what I explained even >> Okay. because of what I explained even even if no first of all we don't know even if no first of all we don't know even if no first of all we don't know there might be already a full scale there might be already a full scale there might be already a full scale quantum computer running somewhere in quantum computer running somewhere in quantum computer running somewhere in the basement of someone uh so we don't the basement of someone uh so we don't the basement of someone uh so we don't know that we have no way to know that is know that we have no way to know that is know that we have no way to know that is not the case but as I just explained uh not the case but as I just explained uh not the case but as I just explained uh not only should you should it already not only should you should it already not only should you should it already impact your life because you should impact your life because you should impact your life because you should worry about what's going to happen uh worry about what's going to happen uh worry about what's going to happen uh even retroactively so so nobody should even retroactively so so nobody should even retroactively so so nobody should just sit down and relax and say well I'm just sit down and relax and say well I'm just sit down and relax and say well I'm going to worry whenever it happens going to worry whenever it happens going to worry whenever it happens because then it's very much much too because then it's very much much too because then it's very much much too late It would be like not taking care of late It would be like not taking care of late It would be like not taking care of climate change and saying, "Oh, we're climate change and saying, "Oh, we're climate change and saying, "Oh, we're going to worry when the earth is going to worry when the earth is going to worry when the earth is destroyed." destroyed." destroyed." >> Right. And and of course, society would >> Right. And and of course, society would >> Right. And and of course, society would never do that. never do that. never do that. >> No, of course. No. No. >> No, of course. No. No. >> No, of course. No. No. >> No. Goodness, no. [laughter] >> No. Goodness, no. [laughter] >> No. Goodness, no. [laughter] Um, wow. So, given that the panic time Um, wow. So, given that the panic time Um, wow. So, given that the panic time is now, how can one use this information is now, how can one use this information is now, how can one use this information in their life and make good choices and in their life and make good choices and in their life and make good choices and good decisions uh so that they don't get good decisions uh so that they don't get good decisions uh so that they don't get burned later? What are the kinds of burned later? What are the kinds of burned later? What are the kinds of things? What is the equivalent of you things? What is the equivalent of you things? What is the equivalent of you know reduce, reuse, recycle when one is know reduce, reuse, recycle when one is know reduce, reuse, recycle when one is thinking about information science in thinking about information science in thinking about information science in this way?

this way? this way? >> I don't have any particular advice other >> I don't have any particular advice other >> I don't have any particular advice other than just generally not saying things than just generally not saying things than just generally not saying things that you'll be embarrassed if they leak that you'll be embarrassed if they leak that you'll be embarrassed if they leak out. out. out. >> Always good advice. Always good advice. >> Always good advice. Always good advice. >> Always good advice. Always good advice. Evergreen advice indeed. Evergreen advice indeed. Evergreen advice indeed. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Well, other than that, it's um uh don't >> Well, other than that, it's um uh don't >> Well, other than that, it's um uh don't blindly trust the current blindly trust the current blindly trust the current infrastructure. uh be aware that infrastructure. uh be aware that infrastructure. uh be aware that everything you say on the internet is everything you say on the internet is everything you say on the internet is susceptible to becoming known at some susceptible to becoming known at some susceptible to becoming known at some future which when is not clear but um so future which when is not clear but um so future which when is not clear but um so be aware of that and and and therefore be aware of that and and and therefore be aware of that and and and therefore yes don't don't say what you might yes don't don't say what you might yes don't don't say what you might regret later or else buy yourself regret later or else buy yourself regret later or else buy yourself quantum cryptographic equipment to to quantum cryptographic equipment to to quantum cryptographic equipment to to talk to your friends talk to your friends talk to your friends >> yeah which is in my basement actually I >> yeah which is in my basement actually I >> yeah which is in my basement actually I forgot to tell you forgot to tell you forgot to tell you >> also >> also >> also about when we'll have a quantum computer about when we'll have a quantum computer about when we'll have a quantum computer uh powerful enough if there's not one uh powerful enough if there's not one uh powerful enough if there's not one already. No, I'm not going to tell you already. No, I'm not going to tell you already. No, I'm not going to tell you in 5 years. But what I can tell you is in 5 years. But what I can tell you is in 5 years. But what I can tell you is that there's been unbelievably fast that there's been unbelievably fast that there's been unbelievably fast progress technologically in the past few progress technologically in the past few progress technologically in the past few years. So, and this it it's it's very years. So, and this it it's it's very years. So, and this it it's it's very very clear. Nobody can can say just very clear. Nobody can can say just very clear. Nobody can can say just close their eyes and say, "Oh, it's close their eyes and say, "Oh, it's close their eyes and say, "Oh, it's never going to happen." 15 years ago, it never going to happen." 15 years ago, it never going to happen." 15 years ago, it it was okay for someone to say nothing.

it was okay for someone to say nothing. it was okay for someone to say nothing. >> There's still a few people who say that, >> There's still a few people who say that, >> There's still a few people who say that, but they're not. but they're not. but they're not. >> But, you know, in the last year or two, >> But, you know, in the last year or two, >> But, you know, in the last year or two, maybe three years, it does feel like maybe three years, it does feel like maybe three years, it does feel like we're starting the beginning of the we're starting the beginning of the we're starting the beginning of the hockey stick upwards in that space. hockey stick upwards in that space. hockey stick upwards in that space. >> That's right. That's right. That's >> That's right. That's right. That's >> That's right. That's right. That's right. That there's really been right. That there's really been right. That there's really been extraordinary progress, technological extraordinary progress, technological extraordinary progress, technological progress to make us believe that it's progress to make us believe that it's progress to make us believe that it's it's coming up soon. Now, how soon I it's coming up soon. Now, how soon I it's coming up soon. Now, how soon I don't want to try to predict. don't want to try to predict. don't want to try to predict. >> Yeah. Well, uh, thank you both for your >> Yeah. Well, uh, thank you both for your >> Yeah. Well, uh, thank you both for your time and for your contributions to the time and for your contributions to the time and for your contributions to the space. We appreciate you very much and space. We appreciate you very much and space. We appreciate you very much and we appreciate you taking time to chat we appreciate you taking time to chat we appreciate you taking time to chat with me, uh, on the ACM bikecast. Thank with me, uh, on the ACM bikecast. Thank with me, uh, on the ACM bikecast. Thank you so much, both of you. you so much, both of you. you so much, both of you. >> Well, did you want to hear about uh, if >> Well, did you want to hear about uh, if >> Well, did you want to hear about uh, if you'll pardon the expression artificial you'll pardon the expression artificial you'll pardon the expression artificial intelligence? intelligence? intelligence? >> If you want, I know that I know that uh, >> If you want, I know that I know that uh, >> If you want, I know that I know that uh, some of us are interested in the topic. some of us are interested in the topic. some of us are interested in the topic. I think I would be interested uh, I think I would be interested uh, I think I would be interested uh, Charles H. in your perspective on uh AI Charles H. in your perspective on uh AI Charles H. in your perspective on uh AI as it relates to it taking my job away, as it relates to it taking my job away, as it relates to it taking my job away, but um I want to ground it in in in some but um I want to ground it in in in some but um I want to ground it in in in some kind of tip or facts that I can take kind of tip or facts that I can take kind of tip or facts that I can take with me into my day and how I should with me into my day and how I should with me into my day and how I should feel about it. But if you have something feel about it. But if you have something feel about it. But if you have something you want to share, certainly feel free.

you want to share, certainly feel free. you want to share, certainly feel free. Well, I think the reason this hurts more Well, I think the reason this hurts more Well, I think the reason this hurts more than when machines were able to take than when machines were able to take than when machines were able to take over other over other over other uh routine activities uh routine activities uh routine activities is that people think of scientific is that people think of scientific is that people think of scientific research and the kind of work that like research and the kind of work that like research and the kind of work that like mathematicians and theoretical mathematicians and theoretical mathematicians and theoretical physicists do trying to physicists do trying to physicists do trying to prove things as like the highest the prove things as like the highest the prove things as like the highest the most intellectually challenging human most intellectually challenging human most intellectually challenging human activities. If computers can do that so activities. If computers can do that so activities. If computers can do that so better, so much better then what is better, so much better then what is better, so much better then what is there left for me? there left for me? there left for me? >> And the the the example I'd like to >> And the the the example I'd like to >> And the the the example I'd like to bring up here is is something that comes bring up here is is something that comes bring up here is is something that comes from computer science. So I'm going to from computer science. So I'm going to from computer science. So I'm going to take some part of the of theoretical take some part of the of theoretical take some part of the of theoretical computer science which is known to to computer science which is known to to computer science which is known to to many of the people in the ACM but but many of the people in the ACM but but many of the people in the ACM but but maybe not all of them and this is what's maybe not all of them and this is what's maybe not all of them and this is what's called the theory of interactive proof called the theory of interactive proof called the theory of interactive proof and this involves questions that you can and this involves questions that you can and this involves questions that you can normally complexity classes like P and normally complexity classes like P and normally complexity classes like P and NP and P space have to do with how much NP and P space have to do with how much NP and P space have to do with how much of some resource like time or space uh of some resource like time or space uh of some resource like time or space uh you need to use in order to solve a you need to use in order to solve a you need to use in order to solve a problem. But this is a problem-solving problem. But this is a problem-solving problem. But this is a problem-solving situation in which uh there are two

situation in which uh there are two situation in which uh there are two participants or two kinds of participants or two kinds of participants or two kinds of participants. There's a a a participants. There's a a a participants. There's a a a honest but limited participant that's honest but limited participant that's honest but limited participant that's nicknamed Arthur nicknamed Arthur nicknamed Arthur and a infinitely wise but completely and a infinitely wise but completely and a infinitely wise but completely untrustworthy participant called Merlin untrustworthy participant called Merlin untrustworthy participant called Merlin like to the Merlin the m magician. like to the Merlin the m magician. like to the Merlin the m magician. And the idea is, is there a way for And the idea is, is there a way for And the idea is, is there a way for Merlin to convince Arthur that something Merlin to convince Arthur that something Merlin to convince Arthur that something is true that Arthur couldn't convince is true that Arthur couldn't convince is true that Arthur couldn't convince himself was true just by trying out himself was true just by trying out himself was true just by trying out whatever all of the tests he needs to do whatever all of the tests he needs to do whatever all of the tests he needs to do to find it because it might take him too to find it because it might take him too to find it because it might take him too much time. much time. much time. Now well the the the theory of Now well the the the theory of Now well the the the theory of interactive proof says there's several interactive proof says there's several interactive proof says there's several results in it but one of them one of the results in it but one of them one of the results in it but one of them one of the most famous results is that if if Merlin most famous results is that if if Merlin most famous results is that if if Merlin and Arthur interact for just a and Arthur interact for just a and Arthur interact for just a polinomial amount of time polinomial amount of time polinomial amount of time >> then Merlin can convince Arthur of the >> then Merlin can convince Arthur of the >> then Merlin can convince Arthur of the truth or falsity of any question that truth or falsity of any question that truth or falsity of any question that that Arthur by himself would require that Arthur by himself would require that Arthur by himself would require polinom omial space to solve. In other polinom omial space to solve. In other polinom omial space to solve. In other something that appears to include something that appears to include something that appears to include exponentially harder problems, exponentially harder problems, exponentially harder problems, including most of those of interest to including most of those of interest to including most of those of interest to mathematical physicists. Of course, it's mathematical physicists. Of course, it's mathematical physicists. Of course, it's an unrealistic model because it involves an unrealistic model because it involves an unrealistic model because it involves this character Merlin, who is supposed this character Merlin, who is supposed this character Merlin, who is supposed to know everything, perhaps even the the to know everything, perhaps even the the to know everything, perhaps even the the solution to the halting problem.

solution to the halting problem. solution to the halting problem. But But But just giving the Arthur the opportunity just giving the Arthur the opportunity just giving the Arthur the opportunity to talk to him and ask him adaptive to talk to him and ask him adaptive to talk to him and ask him adaptive questions where if he starts lying questions where if he starts lying questions where if he starts lying Arthur will catch him within a Arthur will catch him within a Arthur will catch him within a polinomial amount of time that gives polinomial amount of time that gives polinomial amount of time that gives this much greater extra power. And the a this much greater extra power. And the a this much greater extra power. And the a more recent result in that field which more recent result in that field which more recent result in that field which is connected to quantum computing is connected to quantum computing is connected to quantum computing >> Mhm. is or at least quantum information >> Mhm. is or at least quantum information >> Mhm. is or at least quantum information processing is like teleportation is that processing is like teleportation is that processing is like teleportation is that if instead of just one Merlin Merlin you if instead of just one Merlin Merlin you if instead of just one Merlin Merlin you have two of them and they are quantum have two of them and they are quantum have two of them and they are quantum Merlin Arthur is still classical and Merlin Arthur is still classical and Merlin Arthur is still classical and still limited in polinomial time but the still limited in polinomial time but the still limited in polinomial time but the quantum Merlin are entangled but not quantum Merlin are entangled but not quantum Merlin are entangled but not allowed to talk to each other. allowed to talk to each other. allowed to talk to each other. So Arthur can ask these two entangled So Arthur can ask these two entangled So Arthur can ask these two entangled Merlin questions that will trick them up Merlin questions that will trick them up Merlin questions that will trick them up if they try to lie. if they try to lie. if they try to lie. Uh especially cuz he asked them separate Uh especially cuz he asked them separate Uh especially cuz he asked them separate questions. And their entanglement will questions. And their entanglement will questions. And their entanglement will help them cooperate to to in some ways help them cooperate to to in some ways help them cooperate to to in some ways but not well enough to fool Arthur. And but not well enough to fool Arthur. And but not well enough to fool Arthur. And the result that was proven about six the result that was proven about six the result that was proven about six years ago was that in this situation years ago was that in this situation years ago was that in this situation these Merlin can convince Arthur of the these Merlin can convince Arthur of the these Merlin can convince Arthur of the halting of any touring machine. In other halting of any touring machine. In other halting of any touring machine. In other words, that any kind of computation that words, that any kind of computation that words, that any kind of computation that might take you you have no idea how long might take you you have no idea how long might take you you have no idea how long it would take. For example, the most it would take. For example, the most it would take. For example, the most sort of the simplest one is there's an sort of the simplest one is there's an sort of the simplest one is there's an outstanding conjecture in mathematics outstanding conjecture in mathematics outstanding conjecture in mathematics called Goldbox conjecture which says

called Goldbox conjecture which says called Goldbox conjecture which says that every that every that every even number uh besides two is the sum of even number uh besides two is the sum of even number uh besides two is the sum of two primes. two primes. two primes. Now you could go testing that forever Now you could go testing that forever Now you could go testing that forever but no they haven't found a proof of it but no they haven't found a proof of it but no they haven't found a proof of it nor uh of course an example of an even nor uh of course an example of an even nor uh of course an example of an even number that can't be made by adding two number that can't be made by adding two number that can't be made by adding two primes. Now in if if in this scenario if primes. Now in if if in this scenario if primes. Now in if if in this scenario if the if there is a negative answer to the if there is a negative answer to the if there is a negative answer to Goldbox conjecture in other words if Goldbox conjecture in other words if Goldbox conjecture in other words if it's false it's false it's false two quantum provers could prove it to two quantum provers could prove it to two quantum provers could prove it to Arthur in a very limited amount of time Arthur in a very limited amount of time Arthur in a very limited amount of time in it with a proof that Arthur could in it with a proof that Arthur could in it with a proof that Arthur could actually believe. actually believe. actually believe. Now the the subtle interesting feature Now the the subtle interesting feature Now the the subtle interesting feature of this or one of them is that suppose of this or one of them is that suppose of this or one of them is that suppose that Goldblock's conjecture is true and that Goldblock's conjecture is true and that Goldblock's conjecture is true and that in fact if you started looking for that in fact if you started looking for that in fact if you started looking for a counter example you'd never find it. a counter example you'd never find it. a counter example you'd never find it. We'd say well these two quantum provers We'd say well these two quantum provers We'd say well these two quantum provers they're infinitely wise so they already they're infinitely wise so they already they're infinitely wise so they already know the answer to that. Can't they just know the answer to that. Can't they just know the answer to that. Can't they just tell Arthur yeah the answer is no.

tell Arthur yeah the answer is no. tell Arthur yeah the answer is no. There is no counter example to call There is no counter example to call There is no counter example to call conjecture. No, because they can tell conjecture. No, because they can tell conjecture. No, because they can tell they can convince Arthur if the answer they can convince Arthur if the answer they can convince Arthur if the answer is that there is a counter example, but is that there is a counter example, but is that there is a counter example, but they can't convince him that there isn't they can't convince him that there isn't they can't convince him that there isn't because they know the answer to the because they know the answer to the because they know the answer to the holding problem, but they're unreliable. holding problem, but they're unreliable. holding problem, but they're unreliable. So if they tell them the answer is no, So if they tell them the answer is no, So if they tell them the answer is no, that doesn't enable them to believe that that doesn't enable them to believe that that doesn't enable them to believe that it's no. it's no. it's no. So it's a very subtle thing, but what it So it's a very subtle thing, but what it So it's a very subtle thing, but what it says is that it taking the analogy says is that it taking the analogy says is that it taking the analogy farther back into regular everyday life farther back into regular everyday life farther back into regular everyday life is if you think is if you think is if you think that your relation to an artificial that your relation to an artificial that your relation to an artificial intelligence is like Arthur's to Merlin, intelligence is like Arthur's to Merlin, intelligence is like Arthur's to Merlin, you shouldn't trust what it says, but you shouldn't trust what it says, but you shouldn't trust what it says, but you should trust its ability to help you you should trust its ability to help you you should trust its ability to help you convince you of something that is true convince you of something that is true convince you of something that is true because you just have to learn to ask it because you just have to learn to ask it because you just have to learn to ask it questions in the right way. And I think questions in the right way. And I think questions in the right way. And I think that's what we should the way we should that's what we should the way we should that's what we should the way we should approach artificial intelligences is to approach artificial intelligences is to approach artificial intelligences is to say we can't trust them, but they can say we can't trust them, but they can say we can't trust them, but they can help us because we can figure out how to help us because we can figure out how to help us because we can figure out how to ask ask them questions where if they ask ask them questions where if they ask ask them questions where if they they're either telling us the truth or they're either telling us the truth or they're either telling us the truth or we'll catch them at lie. Okay. And let we'll catch them at lie. Okay. And let we'll catch them at lie. Okay. And let me add that uh the invention of inter me add that uh the invention of inter me add that uh the invention of inter directive proofs was awarded the touring directive proofs was awarded the touring directive proofs was awarded the touring award in 2012 to Sylvia Mikuel and and award in 2012 to Sylvia Mikuel and and award in 2012 to Sylvia Mikuel and and Chevy Goldwiser.

Chevy Goldwiser. Chevy Goldwiser. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Al although it was also invented >> Al although it was also invented >> Al although it was also invented independently by Lazaro Babai who did independently by Lazaro Babai who did independently by Lazaro Babai who did not share a toy award in 2012. not share a toy award in 2012. not share a toy award in 2012. >> Well now yeah >> Well now yeah >> Well now yeah >> but but because the attorney award was >> but but because the attorney award was >> but but because the attorney award was also about the cryptographic also about the cryptographic also about the cryptographic applications. applications. applications. >> Yeah. So well then the IPMP space was a >> Yeah. So well then the IPMP space was a >> Yeah. So well then the IPMP space was a little even earlier than that, right? little even earlier than that, right? little even earlier than that, right? >> Wasn't that Shamir or something? >> Wasn't that Shamir or something? >> Wasn't that Shamir or something? >> Yeah. So anyway, these this is this is a >> Yeah. So anyway, these this is this is a >> Yeah. So anyway, these this is this is a very hot topic in theory. very hot topic in theory. very hot topic in theory. >> It had to be no I IP equal peace space >> It had to be no I IP equal peace space >> It had to be no I IP equal peace space had to be afterwards. It had to be had to be afterwards. It had to be had to be afterwards. It had to be >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Invented. >> Invented. >> Invented. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I'm not in which order the touring >> But I'm not in which order the touring >> But I'm not in which order the touring award was given though. award was given though. award was given though. >> Anyway, it it got at least one touring >> Anyway, it it got at least one touring >> Anyway, it it got at least one touring award. award. award. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and and the the newer work may get and and the the newer work may get and and the the newer work may get another one eventually. [snorts] another one eventually. [snorts] another one eventually. [snorts] >> Oh yes, it should. Yes. >> Oh yes, it should. Yes. >> Oh yes, it should. Yes. >> So I think that's an optimistic reason >> So I think that's an optimistic reason >> So I think that's an optimistic reason is to say look the the the machines are is to say look the the the machines are is to say look the the the machines are taking over actually the less important taking over actually the less important taking over actually the less important part of our job and our job is to learn part of our job and our job is to learn part of our job and our job is to learn how to be good Arthurs and not be fooled how to be good Arthurs and not be fooled how to be good Arthurs and not be fooled by these machines even though they're by these machines even though they're by these machines even though they're we're being enormously helped by them.

we're being enormously helped by them. we're being enormously helped by them. I don't know if either of you are I don't know if either of you are I don't know if either of you are thoughtful uh around sci-fi. Certainly thoughtful uh around sci-fi. Certainly thoughtful uh around sci-fi. Certainly in the space you operate in, you must in the space you operate in, you must in the space you operate in, you must have to think about such things. But have to think about such things. But have to think about such things. But when you were telling that story, it when you were telling that story, it when you were telling that story, it immediately make made me think of the immediately make made me think of the immediately make made me think of the har the Harry Mud episode of Star Trek har the Harry Mud episode of Star Trek har the Harry Mud episode of Star Trek when uh Captain Kirk says everything when uh Captain Kirk says everything when uh Captain Kirk says everything Harry tells you is a lie. No matter Harry tells you is a lie. No matter Harry tells you is a lie. No matter what, everything he says is a lie. And what, everything he says is a lie. And what, everything he says is a lie. And then he says, "I'm lying." And then the then he says, "I'm lying." And then the then he says, "I'm lying." And then the android can't reconcile the statement android can't reconcile the statement android can't reconcile the statement that he's lying is a lie. So he's that he's lying is a lie. So he's that he's lying is a lie. So he's telling the truth. But then he explodes. telling the truth. But then he explodes. telling the truth. But then he explodes. So in that case, the humans made uh they So in that case, the humans made uh they So in that case, the humans made uh they they got around the artificial they got around the artificial they got around the artificial intelligence by being smarter and using intelligence by being smarter and using intelligence by being smarter and using the liars paradox. the liars paradox. the liars paradox. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Well, my granddaughter's version of that >> Well, my granddaughter's version of that >> Well, my granddaughter's version of that is how would Pinocchio react is how would Pinocchio react is how would Pinocchio react if you were asked him if his nose was if you were asked him if his nose was if you were asked him if his nose was about to get longer. >> That's a good one. Well, thank you both >> That's a good one. Well, thank you both for giving me uh so much of your time. for giving me uh so much of your time. for giving me uh so much of your time. You're very generous. Uh, I want to You're very generous. Uh, I want to You're very generous. Uh, I want to thank you both. Charles H. Bennett and thank you both. Charles H. Bennett and thank you both. Charles H. Bennett and Jill Brasar. The Jill Brasar. The Jill Brasar. The >> Oh, he probably he has a you have a >> Oh, he probably he has a you have a >> Oh, he probably he has a you have a middle initial too, right?

middle initial too, right? middle initial too, right? >> Me. >> Me. >> Me. >> You? >> You? >> You? >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> no. Okay. The >> no. Okay. The >> no. Okay. The >> I I put I I >> I I put I I >> I I put I I >> I did my research. >> I did my research. >> I did my research. >> Stickler about the H because Charles and >> Stickler about the H because Charles and >> Stickler about the H because Charles and Bennett are very common names and there Bennett are very common names and there Bennett are very common names and there are a fair number of other time Charles are a fair number of other time Charles are a fair number of other time Charles Bennett scientists. Bennett scientists. Bennett scientists. >> No, understood. I respect the the the >> No, understood. I respect the the the >> No, understood. I respect the the the middle initial Charles H. Bennett. Uh middle initial Charles H. Bennett. Uh middle initial Charles H. Bennett. Uh and uh we have been shouting with and uh we have been shouting with and uh we have been shouting with Charlie H. Bennett and Jubasar the Alan Charlie H. Bennett and Jubasar the Alan Charlie H. Bennett and Jubasar the Alan Turring award honores uh foundational Turring award honores uh foundational Turring award honores uh foundational Alan M. Turring Touche Touche [laughter] Alan M. Turring Touche Touche [laughter] Alan M. Turring Touche Touche [laughter] >> uh for found for foundational uh >> uh for found for foundational uh >> uh for found for foundational uh contributions to quantum information contributions to quantum information contributions to quantum information science. Thank you both so much. science. Thank you both so much. science. Thank you both so much. >> Thank you Scott. It was a pleasure >> Thank you Scott. It was a pleasure >> Thank you Scott. It was a pleasure talking to you. talking to you. talking to you. >> Yes. Byebye.