Extended Interview: Sen. Thom Tillis

This feelalty to a would-be king or a This feelalty to a would-be king or a powerful president is not a good look in powerful president is not a good look in powerful president is not a good look in an election cycle where people are an election cycle where people are an election cycle where people are frustrated. Why anybody hesitates to frustrated. Why anybody hesitates to frustrated. Why anybody hesitates to say, "Look, I love the president. I say, "Look, I love the president. I say, "Look, I love the president. I voted for the big beautiful bill. I'm voted for the big beautiful bill. I'm voted for the big beautiful bill. I'm okay with the CMS cuts, but we got to okay with the CMS cuts, but we got to okay with the CMS cuts, but we got to get this thing in Iran, right?" What's get this thing in Iran, right?" What's get this thing in Iran, right?" What's wrong with that? If they're thinking it, wrong with that? If they're thinking it, wrong with that? If they're thinking it, why don't they say it? And the ones who why don't they say it? And the ones who why don't they say it? And the ones who do, I think, will be rewarded at the do, I think, will be rewarded at the do, I think, will be rewarded at the ballot box. And the ones who don't will ballot box. And the ones who don't will ballot box. And the ones who don't will probably have a lot more time with their probably have a lot more time with their probably have a lot more time with their family next year. This week on 60 family next year. This week on 60 family next year. This week on 60 Minutes, we interviewed Senator Tom Minutes, we interviewed Senator Tom Minutes, we interviewed Senator Tom Tillis. The two-term Republican from Tillis. The two-term Republican from Tillis. The two-term Republican from North Carolina has been walking a North Carolina has been walking a North Carolina has been walking a political tightroppe throughout the political tightroppe throughout the political tightroppe throughout the second Trump administration. He's voted second Trump administration. He's voted second Trump administration. He's voted with his party consistently and backed with his party consistently and backed with his party consistently and backed many of President Donald Trump's policy many of President Donald Trump's policy many of President Donald Trump's policy priorities. But he's also been a costic priorities. But he's also been a costic priorities. But he's also been a costic critic of key Trump appointees and what critic of key Trump appointees and what critic of key Trump appointees and what he calls the president's WTF moments. he calls the president's WTF moments. he calls the president's WTF moments. All while insisting he's just trying to All while insisting he's just trying to All while insisting he's just trying to help the White House succeed. Now, on help the White House succeed. Now, on help the White House succeed. Now, on his way out the door, he's written a his way out the door, he's written a his way out the door, he's written a book called How to Lose Friends and book called How to Lose Friends and book called How to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents, in which he Antagonize Presidents, in which he Antagonize Presidents, in which he blames what he calls sycopants in the blames what he calls sycopants in the blames what he calls sycopants in the President's Inner Circle for the President's Inner Circle for the President's Inner Circle for the administration's struggles. In a series administration's struggles. In a series administration's struggles. In a series of conversations on Capitol Hill, we of conversations on Capitol Hill, we of conversations on Capitol Hill, we spoke with Senator Tillis about his spoke with Senator Tillis about his spoke with Senator Tillis about his relationship with President Trump, his relationship with President Trump, his relationship with President Trump, his fear of an increasingly imperial fear of an increasingly imperial fear of an increasingly imperial presidency, and what awaits the presidency, and what awaits the presidency, and what awaits the Republican party in the midterms and Republican party in the midterms and Republican party in the midterms and 2028.

2028. 2028. This is an extended version of those This is an extended version of those This is an extended version of those interviews. interviews. interviews. >> So, we're going to start where >> So, we're going to start where >> So, we're going to start where everything starts with childhood. You everything starts with childhood. You everything starts with childhood. You moved around a lot. moved around a lot. moved around a lot. >> I did. Uh my dad was a draftsman and uh >> I did. Uh my dad was a draftsman and uh >> I did. Uh my dad was a draftsman and uh he did boats which took him from uh one he did boats which took him from uh one he did boats which took him from uh one port city to the other. So, we were in port city to the other. So, we were in port city to the other. So, we were in in Jacksonville, which obviously big in Jacksonville, which obviously big in Jacksonville, which obviously big port city, New Orleans. And then he port city, New Orleans. And then he port city, New Orleans. And then he moved up to Tennessee because it was a moved up to Tennessee because it was a moved up to Tennessee because it was a big dredge in industry at the time. and big dredge in industry at the time. and big dredge in industry at the time. and uh did that until his 40s and then he uh did that until his 40s and then he uh did that until his 40s and then he moved out of that profession. I always moved out of that profession. I always moved out of that profession. I always describe it as the economic bubble. So describe it as the economic bubble. So describe it as the economic bubble. So we literally moved out of that trailer we literally moved out of that trailer we literally moved out of that trailer into that house that we owned. Um we into that house that we owned. Um we into that house that we owned. Um we sold that. Depending upon the sold that. Depending upon the sold that. Depending upon the circumstances we were either in a house circumstances we were either in a house circumstances we were either in a house that we rented, sometimes we owned it that we rented, sometimes we owned it that we rented, sometimes we owned it and when things got really spicy we uh and when things got really spicy we uh and when things got really spicy we uh we're in a trailer park. we're in a trailer park. we're in a trailer park. >> Do you think that your background I >> Do you think that your background I >> Do you think that your background I don't know does it make you different don't know does it make you different don't know does it make you different from your colleagues? You know what? I from your colleagues? You know what? I from your colleagues? You know what? I tell you what, it's why I probably react tell you what, it's why I probably react tell you what, it's why I probably react so quickly to this concept of we don't so quickly to this concept of we don't so quickly to this concept of we don't have an affordability problem. You you have an affordability problem. You you have an affordability problem. You you always have an affordability problem.

always have an affordability problem. always have an affordability problem. There's some segment of our society that There's some segment of our society that There's some segment of our society that always does, but denying it by always does, but denying it by always does, but denying it by definition means you don't recognize the definition means you don't recognize the definition means you don't recognize the problem. If you don't recognize it, problem. If you don't recognize it, problem. If you don't recognize it, you're not solving it. you're not solving it. you're not solving it. >> Take me from the childhood on the bubble >> Take me from the childhood on the bubble >> Take me from the childhood on the bubble into your business career. into your business career. into your business career. >> Okay, fast forward. I get recruited by >> Okay, fast forward. I get recruited by >> Okay, fast forward. I get recruited by the Air Force to um to go serve and I the Air Force to um to go serve and I the Air Force to um to go serve and I thought it was going to be my ticket to thought it was going to be my ticket to thought it was going to be my ticket to go to officer candidate training or or go to officer candidate training or or go to officer candidate training or or go to school. Did that in January of 78 go to school. Did that in January of 78 go to school. Did that in January of 78 and then in May just before I graduated and then in May just before I graduated and then in May just before I graduated I had a car accident. I got discharged. I had a car accident. I got discharged. I had a car accident. I got discharged. I saw a an ad for a professional job in I saw a an ad for a professional job in I saw a an ad for a professional job in Chattanooga, Tennessee and I took that Chattanooga, Tennessee and I took that Chattanooga, Tennessee and I took that job and uh that was a year and a half job and uh that was a year and a half job and uh that was a year and a half there. I was recruited up to Boston at there. I was recruited up to Boston at there. I was recruited up to Boston at Wayne Laboratories. I moved about every Wayne Laboratories. I moved about every Wayne Laboratories. I moved about every two years. So I was up in New England. two years. So I was up in New England. two years. So I was up in New England. Got me into high-tech a few years later. Got me into high-tech a few years later. Got me into high-tech a few years later. I'm interviewing for a job with Price I'm interviewing for a job with Price I'm interviewing for a job with Price Waterhouse. Six years later, I'm a Waterhouse. Six years later, I'm a Waterhouse. Six years later, I'm a partner. One year later after being partner. One year later after being partner. One year later after being admitted to the partnership, I got my admitted to the partnership, I got my admitted to the partnership, I got my four-year degree at almost age 37. four-year degree at almost age 37. four-year degree at almost age 37. >> So you're in North Carolina working at >> So you're in North Carolina working at >> So you're in North Carolina working at Price Waterhouse. And what takes you Price Waterhouse. And what takes you Price Waterhouse. And what takes you from there into running for office? I um from there into running for office? I um from there into running for office? I um I had a friend that by happen stance I had a friend that by happen stance I had a friend that by happen stance lived in Charlotte who had decided he lived in Charlotte who had decided he lived in Charlotte who had decided he was doing a lot of mountain biking. So was doing a lot of mountain biking. So was doing a lot of mountain biking. So he asked me if I wanted to go out. I I he asked me if I wanted to go out. I I he asked me if I wanted to go out. I I got addicted at single track mountain got addicted at single track mountain got addicted at single track mountain biking. So got in got interested in biking. So got in got interested in biking. So got in got interested in mountain biking. But I looked around at mountain biking. But I looked around at mountain biking. But I looked around at these woods. I said, "Man, this would these woods. I said, "Man, this would these woods. I said, "Man, this would make a great single track." So I make a great single track." So I make a great single track." So I researched. I knew it was researched. I knew it was researched. I knew it was government-owned. I didn't know who

government-owned. I didn't know who government-owned. I didn't know who owned it. Then I went before the town owned it. Then I went before the town owned it. Then I went before the town board and being a PW partner, I had a board and being a PW partner, I had a board and being a PW partner, I had a really polished PowerPoint because we really polished PowerPoint because we really polished PowerPoint because we always do. And um afterwards the chair always do. And um afterwards the chair always do. And um afterwards the chair of the uh the park and recck board said, of the uh the park and recck board said, of the uh the park and recck board said, "That's a great presentation. If you "That's a great presentation. If you "That's a great presentation. If you volunteer on the board, we can probably volunteer on the board, we can probably volunteer on the board, we can probably get that done." Well, I got on the board get that done." Well, I got on the board get that done." Well, I got on the board and that's what started my legislative and that's what started my legislative and that's what started my legislative career. And I'm the second Republican career. And I'm the second Republican career. And I'm the second Republican speaker in North Carolina since the speaker in North Carolina since the speaker in North Carolina since the Civil War. I decided to uh challenge a Civil War. I decided to uh challenge a Civil War. I decided to uh challenge a wonderful man uh who had been a wonderful man uh who had been a wonderful man uh who had been a long-term uh minority whip to be long-term uh minority whip to be long-term uh minority whip to be whipped. Uh when everybody thought after whipped. Uh when everybody thought after whipped. Uh when everybody thought after Obama was elected, Republicans were Obama was elected, Republicans were Obama was elected, Republicans were going to be in the bad lands for many going to be in the bad lands for many going to be in the bad lands for many years. I felt like they were going to years. I felt like they were going to years. I felt like they were going to misread their so-called mandate and misread their so-called mandate and misread their so-called mandate and overreach. Uh when nobody thought overreach. Uh when nobody thought overreach. Uh when nobody thought Republicans had a chance, we beat the Republicans had a chance, we beat the Republicans had a chance, we beat the Democrats for only the second time in Democrats for only the second time in Democrats for only the second time in over a hundred years. And I believe over a hundred years. And I believe over a hundred years. And I believe that's why they they had confidence in that's why they they had confidence in that's why they they had confidence in making me speaker. making me speaker. making me speaker. >> Give me one thing from your speakerhip >> Give me one thing from your speakerhip >> Give me one thing from your speakerhip there that you're proud of. there that you're proud of. there that you're proud of. >> Uh restitution for eugenics victims.

>> Uh restitution for eugenics victims. >> Uh restitution for eugenics victims. >> Tell me more about that. >> Tell me more about that. >> Tell me more about that. >> I had no knowledge of it, but uh it it >> I had no knowledge of it, but uh it it >> I had no knowledge of it, but uh it it dates back to the Stanger movement and dates back to the Stanger movement and dates back to the Stanger movement and eugenics programs that were uh you know eugenics programs that were uh you know eugenics programs that were uh you know were being implemented in Europe. Sort were being implemented in Europe. Sort were being implemented in Europe. Sort of uh the arrogance of thinking some of uh the arrogance of thinking some of uh the arrogance of thinking some people should procreate, others people should procreate, others people should procreate, others shouldn't. Well, that became a part of shouldn't. Well, that became a part of shouldn't. Well, that became a part of social services. Not all, but many social services. Not all, but many social services. Not all, but many states did it. But they would use your states did it. But they would use your states did it. But they would use your ability to reproduce as a u mechanism ability to reproduce as a u mechanism ability to reproduce as a u mechanism for having you agree to be sterilized as for having you agree to be sterilized as for having you agree to be sterilized as a part of uh subsistence. Um, and the a part of uh subsistence. Um, and the a part of uh subsistence. Um, and the more we looked into it, more we looked into it, more we looked into it, >> so you you your if you could get welfare >> so you you your if you could get welfare >> so you you your if you could get welfare if you agreed to be, you know, and it if you agreed to be, you know, and it if you agreed to be, you know, and it was obviously tracking to probably some was obviously tracking to probably some was obviously tracking to probably some of the the more problematic, more racist of the the more problematic, more racist of the the more problematic, more racist areas of the state. It was areas of the state. It was areas of the state. It was disproportionately African-American. I disproportionately African-American. I disproportionately African-American. I think it was around 1973 or 1974, the think it was around 1973 or 1974, the think it was around 1973 or 1974, the last for sterilization. So, North last for sterilization. So, North last for sterilization. So, North Carolina was one of the worst states. Carolina was one of the worst states. Carolina was one of the worst states. When we became speaker, I tried to get When we became speaker, I tried to get When we became speaker, I tried to get it done. I was getting push back from my it done. I was getting push back from my it done. I was getting push back from my side and I had one of my members say you side and I had one of my members say you side and I had one of my members say you deserve to get this done. Um and uh and deserve to get this done. Um and uh and deserve to get this done. Um and uh and we worked it into an appropriations bill we worked it into an appropriations bill we worked it into an appropriations bill and uh got restitution first in the and uh got restitution first in the and uh got restitution first in the country and and I think only one other country and and I think only one other country and and I think only one other country at the time um had actually done country at the time um had actually done country at the time um had actually done restitution uh in Northern Europe. So we restitution uh in Northern Europe. So we restitution uh in Northern Europe. So we allocated $10 million to provide some allocated $10 million to provide some allocated $10 million to provide some form of restitution to them and to the form of restitution to them and to the form of restitution to them and to the living victims. This wasn't, you know, living victims. This wasn't, you know, living victims. This wasn't, you know, you had people, you know, saying this is you had people, you know, saying this is you had people, you know, saying this is reparations for slavery. I said, "Look, reparations for slavery. I said, "Look, reparations for slavery. I said, "Look, buddy, if we've got a living slave here,

buddy, if we've got a living slave here, buddy, if we've got a living slave here, I want to give them reparations." These I want to give them reparations." These I want to give them reparations." These are living people who had a part of are living people who had a part of are living people who had a part of their body taken out over by government. their body taken out over by government. their body taken out over by government. If that's not a conservative value, and If that's not a conservative value, and If that's not a conservative value, and if that's not the most profound form of if that's not the most profound form of if that's not the most profound form of taking, government taking, I don't know taking, government taking, I don't know taking, government taking, I don't know what is, but getting that done, that's what is, but getting that done, that's what is, but getting that done, that's the thing I'll remember. the thing I'll remember. the thing I'll remember. >> So, now we're in 2014. So, you're by by >> So, now we're in 2014. So, you're by by >> So, now we're in 2014. So, you're by by that point, you're running for the that point, you're running for the that point, you're running for the Senate. Mhm. Senate. Mhm. Senate. Mhm. >> What made you want to be a senator? >> What made you want to be a senator? >> What made you want to be a senator? >> I didn't want a Democrat to win it. Um >> I didn't want a Democrat to win it. Um >> I didn't want a Democrat to win it. Um and I thought with the right candidate, and I thought with the right candidate, and I thought with the right candidate, um we could uh we could win. And u in um we could uh we could win. And u in um we could uh we could win. And u in fact, there were a few people if they fact, there were a few people if they fact, there were a few people if they had run, I probably wouldn't. Uh but in had run, I probably wouldn't. Uh but in had run, I probably wouldn't. Uh but in my judgment, the other six people that my judgment, the other six people that my judgment, the other six people that showed up, most of them were good showed up, most of them were good showed up, most of them were good people. One was a little crazy. Um, but people. One was a little crazy. Um, but people. One was a little crazy. Um, but I didn't think that they understood that I didn't think that they understood that I didn't think that they understood that they were going to be the number one they were going to be the number one they were going to be the number one target at race, that it was going to be target at race, that it was going to be target at race, that it was going to be a hund00 million or more race and we had a hund00 million or more race and we had a hund00 million or more race and we had to have somebody that could actually to have somebody that could actually to have somebody that could actually win. I wanted I wanted to be part of win. I wanted I wanted to be part of win. I wanted I wanted to be part of turning the Senate to a Republican turning the Senate to a Republican turning the Senate to a Republican majority and that was the year we got majority and that was the year we got majority and that was the year we got it. it. it. >> So, at this point, this is a few years >> So, at this point, this is a few years >> So, at this point, this is a few years after the peak of the Tea Party after the peak of the Tea Party after the peak of the Tea Party movement. Um, but you know, it's still movement. Um, but you know, it's still movement. Um, but you know, it's still sort of in the Tea Party era.

sort of in the Tea Party era. sort of in the Tea Party era. >> What kind of conservative were you at >> What kind of conservative were you at >> What kind of conservative were you at that moment? the same conservative I am that moment? the same conservative I am that moment? the same conservative I am today. Uh pro- second amendment, today. Uh pro- second amendment, today. Uh pro- second amendment, pro-life, limited government, uh fiscal pro-life, limited government, uh fiscal pro-life, limited government, uh fiscal restraint. Uh the only difference restraint. Uh the only difference restraint. Uh the only difference between me and a lot of people that call between me and a lot of people that call between me and a lot of people that call themselves true conservatives is I got a themselves true conservatives is I got a themselves true conservatives is I got a long list of things that were ratified long list of things that were ratified long list of things that were ratified and they don't. and they don't. and they don't. >> Who are your role models coming into the >> Who are your role models coming into the >> Who are your role models coming into the Senate? Who do you want to be like Senate? Who do you want to be like Senate? Who do you want to be like >> as senators? >> as senators? >> as senators? >> As a senator. Yeah. >> As a senator. Yeah. >> As a senator. Yeah. >> Uh well, I named a dog after Mitch >> Uh well, I named a dog after Mitch >> Uh well, I named a dog after Mitch McConnell. So that he's he's on the McConnell. So that he's he's on the McConnell. So that he's he's on the leaderboard. leaderboard. leaderboard. >> Was he was he When did you name your dog >> Was he was he When did you name your dog >> Was he was he When did you name your dog after Mitch McConnell? Uh, let's see. after Mitch McConnell? Uh, let's see. after Mitch McConnell? Uh, let's see. Little Mitch is, I think, seven years Little Mitch is, I think, seven years Little Mitch is, I think, seven years old. old. old. >> Okay. So, this was after you got to the >> Okay. So, this was after you got to the >> Okay. So, this was after you got to the Senate. Yeah. Yeah. So, you're in the Senate. Yeah. Yeah. So, you're in the Senate. Yeah. Yeah. So, you're in the Senate. It's 2014. The next year, it's Senate. It's 2014. The next year, it's Senate. It's 2014. The next year, it's the summer. Donald Trump comes down the the summer. Donald Trump comes down the the summer. Donald Trump comes down the escalator in Trump Tower, escalator in Trump Tower, escalator in Trump Tower, >> runs against the whole Republican >> runs against the whole Republican >> runs against the whole Republican establishment, the whole primary establishment, the whole primary establishment, the whole primary campaign campaign campaign >> and wins. >> and wins. >> and wins. >> Trump wasn't a traditional conservative >> Trump wasn't a traditional conservative >> Trump wasn't a traditional conservative in 2015, 2016. Still is. in 2015, 2016. Still is. in 2015, 2016. Still is. >> So, so why did he win? uh >> So, so why did he win? uh >> So, so why did he win? uh >> the nomination.

>> the nomination. >> the nomination. >> I I believe he did a remarkable job of >> I I believe he did a remarkable job of >> I I believe he did a remarkable job of managing his brand and and and voicing managing his brand and and and voicing managing his brand and and and voicing some of the frustrations some of the frustrations some of the frustrations uh that the American people had and uh uh that the American people had and uh uh that the American people had and uh and I think that Obama with the and I think that Obama with the and I think that Obama with the overreach of Obamacare uh a number of overreach of Obamacare uh a number of overreach of Obamacare uh a number of other things, it was just fertile ground other things, it was just fertile ground other things, it was just fertile ground for frustration. But you also have to for frustration. But you also have to for frustration. But you also have to understand this is coming up at the same understand this is coming up at the same understand this is coming up at the same time social media amplification of the time social media amplification of the time social media amplification of the message sustaining the message became a message sustaining the message became a message sustaining the message became a part of polit politics. So it's not like part of polit politics. So it's not like part of polit politics. So it's not like we're going to get out of a populist we're going to get out of a populist we're going to get out of a populist phase that started with Obama and then phase that started with Obama and then phase that started with Obama and then put on steroids by Trump continued with put on steroids by Trump continued with put on steroids by Trump continued with Biden. It's here to stay. And I think Biden. It's here to stay. And I think Biden. It's here to stay. And I think that President Trump does a remarkable that President Trump does a remarkable that President Trump does a remarkable job of you know trying to voice the job of you know trying to voice the job of you know trying to voice the frustrations of people and he got the frustrations of people and he got the frustrations of people and he got the votes and I'm glad he did. I'm glad he votes and I'm glad he did. I'm glad he votes and I'm glad he did. I'm glad he won in 2016. won in 2016. won in 2016. >> I guess I'm just wondering, yes, Trump >> I guess I'm just wondering, yes, Trump >> I guess I'm just wondering, yes, Trump was running against Obama and the Obama was running against Obama and the Obama was running against Obama and the Obama legacy, but he was also in that primary legacy, but he was also in that primary legacy, but he was also in that primary running against Republican politics as running against Republican politics as running against Republican politics as usual. And I'm just sort of curious if usual. And I'm just sort of curious if usual. And I'm just sort of curious if while he was on his way to winning or while he was on his way to winning or while he was on his way to winning or after he won, if you know there's a after he won, if you know there's a after he won, if you know there's a moment when, you know, a bunch of moment when, you know, a bunch of moment when, you know, a bunch of Republican senators are sitting around Republican senators are sitting around Republican senators are sitting around in DC and are saying, "Well, what can we in DC and are saying, "Well, what can we in DC and are saying, "Well, what can we learn from this?" Yeah, I I think to a learn from this?" Yeah, I I think to a learn from this?" Yeah, I I think to a certain extent, but obviously he was certain extent, but obviously he was certain extent, but obviously he was mostly running against the Democrats.

mostly running against the Democrats. mostly running against the Democrats. That's why he ran and the liberal That's why he ran and the liberal That's why he ran and the liberal policies that uh had created a lot of policies that uh had created a lot of policies that uh had created a lot of problems for us. Um and uh but he was problems for us. Um and uh but he was problems for us. Um and uh but he was also trying to awaken a part of a also trying to awaken a part of a also trying to awaken a part of a Republican base that had become Republican base that had become Republican base that had become disinterested after eight years under disinterested after eight years under disinterested after eight years under Obama. And thank God he did. He awakened Obama. And thank God he did. He awakened Obama. And thank God he did. He awakened a part of the Republican party uh that a part of the Republican party uh that a part of the Republican party uh that was necessary to win at the national was necessary to win at the national was necessary to win at the national level. level. level. >> Describe that part. Well, some of them >> Describe that part. Well, some of them >> Describe that part. Well, some of them are good people and some of them are bat are good people and some of them are bat are good people and some of them are bat crazy. crazy. crazy. >> What's the proportion? >> What's the proportion? >> What's the proportion? >> Look, I think at either party, um I I'll >> Look, I think at either party, um I I'll >> Look, I think at either party, um I I'll use the uh the abbreviation at either use the uh the abbreviation at either use the uh the abbreviation at either end of the spectrum, there's about 10 or end of the spectrum, there's about 10 or end of the spectrum, there's about 10 or 15% that have been exposed to guano. Um 15% that have been exposed to guano. Um 15% that have been exposed to guano. Um and [laughter] and and but the other the and [laughter] and and but the other the and [laughter] and and but the other the other people, you know, they're that I I other people, you know, they're that I I other people, you know, they're that I I really believe there's a big center really believe there's a big center really believe there's a big center people that that really want to govern people that that really want to govern people that that really want to govern between the 35 yard lines. U but by between the 35 yard lines. U but by between the 35 yard lines. U but by their very nature, they're not their very nature, they're not their very nature, they're not performative. They're not attacking performative. They're not attacking performative. They're not attacking people. They're not normally they're people. They're not normally they're people. They're not normally they're going out. Hopefully, we can convince going out. Hopefully, we can convince going out. Hopefully, we can convince them to vote if you have a reasonable them to vote if you have a reasonable them to vote if you have a reasonable candidate. The problem with politics candidate. The problem with politics candidate. The problem with politics right now are the polar extremes. And if right now are the polar extremes. And if right now are the polar extremes. And if you look at what they're prioritizing, you look at what they're prioritizing, you look at what they're prioritizing, they actually have a lot in common. and they actually have a lot in common. and they actually have a lot in common. and they have nothing in common with the they have nothing in common with the they have nothing in common with the governing middle between the what I call governing middle between the what I call governing middle between the what I call the the 35 yard lines of politics.

the the 35 yard lines of politics. the the 35 yard lines of politics. >> So you're glad you're glad Trump won >> So you're glad you're glad Trump won >> So you're glad you're glad Trump won >> in 2016. >> in 2016. >> in 2016. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You're glad he beat Hillary. You're glad >> You're glad he beat Hillary. You're glad >> You're glad he beat Hillary. You're glad he was president he was president he was president >> and we did great stuff. >> and we did great stuff. >> and we did great stuff. >> You know, you've offered quite a few >> You know, you've offered quite a few >> You know, you've offered quite a few criticisms of the second Trump criticisms of the second Trump criticisms of the second Trump administration. And some of them have administration. And some of them have administration. And some of them have been put together in a book that I have been put together in a book that I have been put together in a book that I have right here. right here. right here. >> Can you tell me the title of this book? >> Can you tell me the title of this book? >> Can you tell me the title of this book? Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a little Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a little Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a little take on Dale Carnegie, but it's how to take on Dale Carnegie, but it's how to take on Dale Carnegie, but it's how to lose friends and antagonize presidents. lose friends and antagonize presidents. lose friends and antagonize presidents. >> Any presidents in particular? >> Any presidents in particular? >> Any presidents in particular? >> Well, I mean, more recent one, but I did >> Well, I mean, more recent one, but I did >> Well, I mean, more recent one, but I did a good job of antagonizing Biden and a a good job of antagonizing Biden and a a good job of antagonizing Biden and a little bit with Obama back in the day. little bit with Obama back in the day. little bit with Obama back in the day. >> Okay. But if if you look closely, there >> Okay. But if if you look closely, there >> Okay. But if if you look closely, there isn't a picture of a president on the isn't a picture of a president on the isn't a picture of a president on the cover, but there is a picture of three cover, but there is a picture of three cover, but there is a picture of three separate Trump cabinet officials, Pete separate Trump cabinet officials, Pete separate Trump cabinet officials, Pete Hegsth, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Hegsth, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Hegsth, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Christine Gnome. And then there's a Christine Gnome. And then there's a Christine Gnome. And then there's a small picture of small picture of small picture of White House Deputy Chief of Staff for White House Deputy Chief of Staff for White House Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy, Steven Miller. And um we're Policy, Steven Miller. And um we're Policy, Steven Miller. And um we're going to get into this, but it's fair to going to get into this, but it's fair to going to get into this, but it's fair to say that you're not a big fan.

say that you're not a big fan. say that you're not a big fan. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Of the people on the cover of this book, >> Of the people on the cover of this book, >> Of the people on the cover of this book, but but but this is Trump 2.0. this is Trump 2.0. this is Trump 2.0. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Talk about Trump 1.0. >> Talk about Trump 1.0. >> Talk about Trump 1.0. >> The um >> The um >> The um >> what was good about it? Well, you know, >> what was good about it? Well, you know, >> what was good about it? Well, you know, my gosh, we did uh what we're calling, my gosh, we did uh what we're calling, my gosh, we did uh what we're calling, you know, what we did with tax cuts to you know, what we did with tax cuts to you know, what we did with tax cuts to continue last year. Uh that was in the continue last year. Uh that was in the continue last year. Uh that was in the big beautiful bill. The tax cuts were big beautiful bill. The tax cuts were big beautiful bill. The tax cuts were good stuff. We did that. We did good stuff. We did that. We did good stuff. We did that. We did regulatory reform. Um we did a a number regulatory reform. Um we did a a number regulatory reform. Um we did a a number of things were just good, smart of things were just good, smart of things were just good, smart governance. governance. governance. >> So, you did you like the economic >> So, you did you like the economic >> So, you did you like the economic policies. policies. policies. >> What about foreign policy? Um, I've I've >> What about foreign policy? Um, I've I've >> What about foreign policy? Um, I've I've always uh had some concerns with always uh had some concerns with always uh had some concerns with President Trump's foreign policy. We we President Trump's foreign policy. We we President Trump's foreign policy. We we always you need to treat the the always you need to treat the the always you need to treat the the neighborhood of countries in a way that neighborhood of countries in a way that neighborhood of countries in a way that you always know who your family members you always know who your family members you always know who your family members are and the family members are NATO are and the family members are NATO are and the family members are NATO members and democratic nations who have members and democratic nations who have members and democratic nations who have a history of aligning when when things a history of aligning when when things a history of aligning when when things get tough. the president, I want to give get tough. the president, I want to give get tough. the president, I want to give him extraordinary credit particularly in him extraordinary credit particularly in him extraordinary credit particularly in in in this administration, but beginning in in this administration, but beginning in in this administration, but beginning in his first one with holding NATO in his first one with holding NATO in his first one with holding NATO accountable. I firmly believe that some accountable. I firmly believe that some accountable. I firmly believe that some of the vulnerability that we're seeing of the vulnerability that we're seeing of the vulnerability that we're seeing that that caused the Ukrainian invasion that that caused the Ukrainian invasion that that caused the Ukrainian invasion is because a $2 trillion shortfall in is because a $2 trillion shortfall in is because a $2 trillion shortfall in spending at the minimum 2% level for the spending at the minimum 2% level for the spending at the minimum 2% level for the first 20 years of this century. So NATO first 20 years of this century. So NATO first 20 years of this century. So NATO countries left $2 trillion on the countries left $2 trillion on the countries left $2 trillion on the sideline. If we had that capability and

sideline. If we had that capability and sideline. If we had that capability and all the integration and industrial base all the integration and industrial base all the integration and industrial base that came with it, Putin probably would that came with it, Putin probably would that came with it, Putin probably would have made a different calculation. We'll have made a different calculation. We'll have made a different calculation. We'll never know. We're seeing NATO transform. never know. We're seeing NATO transform. never know. We're seeing NATO transform. I I was in Poland and Ukraine over the I I was in Poland and Ukraine over the I I was in Poland and Ukraine over the past couple of days uh talking about past couple of days uh talking about past couple of days uh talking about other member states in NATO. I mean, other member states in NATO. I mean, other member states in NATO. I mean, they get it and they understand that they get it and they understand that they get it and they understand that they've got to sustain it. That's all they've got to sustain it. That's all they've got to sustain it. That's all because of Donald J. Trump. Certainly because of Donald J. Trump. Certainly because of Donald J. Trump. Certainly wasn't because of anything Biden did. So wasn't because of anything Biden did. So wasn't because of anything Biden did. So you've got first term, you've got good you've got first term, you've got good you've got first term, you've got good economic policies, you've got economic policies, you've got economic policies, you've got problematic but directionally effective problematic but directionally effective problematic but directionally effective foreign policy. foreign policy. foreign policy. >> What about the Trump style? >> What about the Trump style? >> What about the Trump style? >> Yeah. Well, that's it. See, most of it >> Yeah. Well, that's it. See, most of it >> Yeah. Well, that's it. See, most of it it's not about the what. It's about the it's not about the what. It's about the it's not about the what. It's about the how. how. how. >> I mean, the way that the president Well, >> I mean, the way that the president Well, >> I mean, the way that the president Well, you've got president's style. Okay. And you've got president's style. Okay. And you've got president's style. Okay. And he's going to be he's I'm not going to he's going to be he's I'm not going to he's going to be he's I'm not going to change. He's not going to change. change. He's not going to change. change. He's not going to change. >> There's going to be there's going to be >> There's going to be there's going to be >> There's going to be there's going to be social media post. The problem I have social media post. The problem I have social media post. The problem I have with some of the people on the front with some of the people on the front with some of the people on the front page of that book and a few others is page of that book and a few others is page of that book and a few others is that they're not looking around corners that they're not looking around corners that they're not looking around corners for him. Most of the issues that we're for him. Most of the issues that we're for him. Most of the issues that we're dealing with here have less to do with dealing with here have less to do with dealing with here have less to do with what he wanted to accomplish, but how he what he wanted to accomplish, but how he what he wanted to accomplish, but how he went about it. Border is a classic went about it. Border is a classic went about it. Border is a classic example. The, you know, for the first example. The, you know, for the first example. The, you know, for the first time, immigration and the the four time, immigration and the the four time, immigration and the the four million people that Biden led in with million people that Biden led in with million people that Biden led in with open borders became a factor in the open borders became a factor in the open borders became a factor in the president's re-elect.

president's re-elect. president's re-elect. >> He had a wonderful big factor. He had a >> He had a wonderful big factor. He had a >> He had a wonderful big factor. He had a wonderful opportunity to cottify these wonderful opportunity to cottify these wonderful opportunity to cottify these policies that have effectively shut down policies that have effectively shut down policies that have effectively shut down the border. the border. the border. >> He didn't have to do the overreach that >> He didn't have to do the overreach that >> He didn't have to do the overreach that Nol and everybody got involved in. We Nol and everybody got involved in. We Nol and everybody got involved in. We could have done internal enforcement and could have done internal enforcement and could have done internal enforcement and and use the resources. I I I fully and use the resources. I I I fully and use the resources. I I I fully believe, you know, Obama deported a lot believe, you know, Obama deported a lot believe, you know, Obama deported a lot of people. We've got to deport people of people. We've got to deport people of people. We've got to deport people who are here that are illegally present. who are here that are illegally present. who are here that are illegally present. Um but they just went about it in a way Um but they just went about it in a way Um but they just went about it in a way that took a issue that helped us win the that took a issue that helped us win the that took a issue that helped us win the election that we were winning on. And election that we were winning on. And election that we were winning on. And people have forgotten the fact that the people have forgotten the fact that the people have forgotten the fact that the border is secure because of Donald J. border is secure because of Donald J. border is secure because of Donald J. Trump. Trump. Trump. >> So the first term, is it just that he's >> So the first term, is it just that he's >> So the first term, is it just that he's he's getting better advice? he's getting better advice? he's getting better advice? >> Yes, they were willing to tell the >> Yes, they were willing to tell the >> Yes, they were willing to tell the president what he needed to hear. And president what he needed to hear. And president what he needed to hear. And I'm glad they did because they are the I'm glad they did because they are the I'm glad they did because they are the ones who gave him a really I think a ones who gave him a really I think a ones who gave him a really I think a really good four-year administration. really good four-year administration. really good four-year administration. >> So what changes this time? >> So what changes this time? >> So what changes this time? >> I should stipulate there are a lot of >> I should stipulate there are a lot of >> I should stipulate there are a lot of good people working for him. But I think good people working for him. But I think good people working for him. But I think you got I think you've got these you got I think you've got these you got I think you've got these sickopants who are going to say, "Yes, sickopants who are going to say, "Yes, sickopants who are going to say, "Yes, boss, that's a great idea. Let's rename boss, that's a great idea. Let's rename boss, that's a great idea. Let's rename this. Let's build a Let's build an arc.

this. Let's build a Let's build an arc. this. Let's build a Let's build an arc. Let's uh do whatever we're doing. Maybe Let's uh do whatever we're doing. Maybe Let's uh do whatever we're doing. Maybe a golden cal cap on the ellipse. I don't a golden cal cap on the ellipse. I don't a golden cal cap on the ellipse. I don't know. But they're they're not being know. But they're they're not being know. But they're they're not being smart. But the reality is if I'm looking smart. But the reality is if I'm looking smart. But the reality is if I'm looking the president in the eye and telling him the president in the eye and telling him the president in the eye and telling him a bad idea is a good idea, I'm lying to a bad idea is a good idea, I'm lying to a bad idea is a good idea, I'm lying to the president of the United States and the president of the United States and the president of the United States and I'll never do that. I'll never do that. I'll never do that. One thing I thought was interesting in One thing I thought was interesting in One thing I thought was interesting in your book when you're talking about the your book when you're talking about the your book when you're talking about the change in Trump's second term, um, you change in Trump's second term, um, you change in Trump's second term, um, you talk about hubris, right? About this talk about hubris, right? About this talk about hubris, right? About this sense that sense that sense that >> it's our second term. We've won, we can >> it's our second term. We've won, we can >> it's our second term. We've won, we can do whatever the do whatever the do whatever the >> exploive deleted that we want, right? >> exploive deleted that we want, right? >> exploive deleted that we want, right? But you also say you think that after But you also say you think that after But you also say you think that after the assassination attempt in Butler, the assassination attempt in Butler, the assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania, there was almost a sense Pennsylvania, there was almost a sense Pennsylvania, there was almost a sense of divine mission or around talk about of divine mission or around talk about of divine mission or around talk about that a little bit. Well, I mean, it was that a little bit. Well, I mean, it was that a little bit. Well, I mean, it was extraordinary and thank God uh he extraordinary and thank God uh he extraordinary and thank God uh he survived. Um, but I do believe uh maybe survived. Um, but I do believe uh maybe survived. Um, but I do believe uh maybe there was a sense that well, if nothing there was a sense that well, if nothing there was a sense that well, if nothing else, let's get rid of the divine else, let's get rid of the divine else, let's get rid of the divine mission and just say days are numbered.

mission and just say days are numbered. mission and just say days are numbered. A sense that days are numbered. I'm A sense that days are numbered. I'm A sense that days are numbered. I'm going to charge through and get done going to charge through and get done going to charge through and get done everything I can do. You know, you're in everything I can do. You know, you're in everything I can do. You know, you're in touch with your uh your mortality. touch with your uh your mortality. touch with your uh your mortality. >> You say you think the president came to >> You say you think the president came to >> You say you think the president came to believe that he was kind of an equal believe that he was kind of an equal believe that he was kind of an equal partner with God. partner with God. partner with God. >> Well, look, man. I mean, you've seen the >> Well, look, man. I mean, you've seen the >> Well, look, man. I mean, you've seen the post. I mean, when you got a Dr. Jesus post. I mean, when you got a Dr. Jesus post. I mean, when you got a Dr. Jesus picture, you post it up and then you picture, you post it up and then you picture, you post it up and then you start by doing like a divine thing and start by doing like a divine thing and start by doing like a divine thing and then you move it to I think it was a then you move it to I think it was a then you move it to I think it was a doctor. doctor. doctor. >> Uh, I can't imagine doing something like >> Uh, I can't imagine doing something like >> Uh, I can't imagine doing something like that. that. that. >> Let's talk about his appointees and the >> Let's talk about his appointees and the >> Let's talk about his appointees and the people around him who you think are people around him who you think are people around him who you think are responsible for responsible for responsible for >> a difficult second term. Let's start >> a difficult second term. Let's start >> a difficult second term. Let's start with the Secretary of Defense, Pete H. with the Secretary of Defense, Pete H. with the Secretary of Defense, Pete H. >> You voted to confirm him. >> You voted to confirm him. >> You voted to confirm him. >> Yeah. You call that your biggest regret? >> Yeah. You call that your biggest regret? >> Yeah. You call that your biggest regret? Regret. Regret. Regret. >> Uh, is you just call on him to resign? >> Uh, is you just call on him to resign? >> Uh, is you just call on him to resign? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think he's incompetent. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think he's incompetent. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think he's incompetent. This sort of superhero Department of War This sort of superhero Department of War This sort of superhero Department of War mache machismo machismo crap just mache machismo machismo crap just mache machismo machismo crap just doesn't uh impress me doesn't uh impress me doesn't uh impress me >> in terms of policy. What he's actually >> in terms of policy. What he's actually >> in terms of policy. What he's actually doing at the department. What are you doing at the department. What are you doing at the department. What are you against?

against? against? >> Well, it's the fits and starts, man. I >> Well, it's the fits and starts, man. I >> Well, it's the fits and starts, man. I mean, it's like no vaccines. Whoopsie. mean, it's like no vaccines. Whoopsie. mean, it's like no vaccines. Whoopsie. We got a lot of people sick. vaccines. We got a lot of people sick. vaccines. We got a lot of people sick. vaccines. Um, it's testosterone testing. Look, if Um, it's testosterone testing. Look, if Um, it's testosterone testing. Look, if a war if a war fighter or personnel a war if a war fighter or personnel a war if a war fighter or personnel wants access to that, give it to them. wants access to that, give it to them. wants access to that, give it to them. Mandatory testosterone Mandatory testosterone Mandatory testosterone testing. I mean, my gosh, I've even testing. I mean, my gosh, I've even testing. I mean, my gosh, I've even talked with a lot of people in the field talked with a lot of people in the field talked with a lot of people in the field and they just chuckle at it. But I and they just chuckle at it. But I and they just chuckle at it. But I decided to rely on the Armed Services decided to rely on the Armed Services decided to rely on the Armed Services Committee for that uh their assessment Committee for that uh their assessment Committee for that uh their assessment whether or not he had the right job, whether or not he had the right job, whether or not he had the right job, right skills to do the job. I used to be right skills to do the job. I used to be right skills to do the job. I used to be on it for eight years. I said, "I'm on it for eight years. I said, "I'm on it for eight years. I said, "I'm going to defer to you all." When going to defer to you all." When going to defer to you all." When [clears throat] these allegations came [clears throat] these allegations came [clears throat] these allegations came out, though, and quite honest, I was out, though, and quite honest, I was out, though, and quite honest, I was looking for a secondhand cooperated looking for a secondhand cooperated looking for a secondhand cooperated account so that I could vote against account so that I could vote against account so that I could vote against them. I couldn't find it. And I don't them. I couldn't find it. And I don't them. I couldn't find it. And I don't work on Instinct. I don't work on work on Instinct. I don't work on work on Instinct. I don't work on intuition. So, in the absence of that, I intuition. So, in the absence of that, I intuition. So, in the absence of that, I decided to defer to the Senate vote. And decided to defer to the Senate vote. And decided to defer to the Senate vote. And I the Senate Armed Services Committee I the Senate Armed Services Committee I the Senate Armed Services Committee vote. And I regret that. vote. And I regret that. vote. And I regret that. >> Do you hold him responsible for the >> Do you hold him responsible for the >> Do you hold him responsible for the struggle in the Iran war? because you've struggle in the Iran war? because you've struggle in the Iran war? because you've said that you supported the initial said that you supported the initial said that you supported the initial decision decision decision in you know I think that they got so in you know I think that they got so in you know I think that they got so caught up after the immense success of caught up after the immense success of caught up after the immense success of the first strike the first strike the first strike >> that heth probably didn't listen to his >> that heth probably didn't listen to his >> that heth probably didn't listen to his best military advice and say now we best military advice and say now we best military advice and say now we should probably move to a different should probably move to a different should probably move to a different posture.

posture. posture. >> Do you think that he misled the >> Do you think that he misled the >> Do you think that he misled the president about what the military is president about what the military is president about what the military is capable of alone? Well, I think that he capable of alone? Well, I think that he capable of alone? Well, I think that he gave the president his view and what gave the president his view and what gave the president his view and what some of his political adviserss around some of his political adviserss around some of his political adviserss around him thought rather than the best him thought rather than the best him thought rather than the best military advice of these extraordinary military advice of these extraordinary military advice of these extraordinary men and women with stars on their men and women with stars on their men and women with stars on their shoulders. I can't believe that this war shoulders. I can't believe that this war shoulders. I can't believe that this war uh and this plan was largely a result of uh and this plan was largely a result of uh and this plan was largely a result of the recommendations of the people that the recommendations of the people that the recommendations of the people that transcend administrations. Just can't transcend administrations. Just can't transcend administrations. Just can't believe it. believe it. believe it. >> Pegs has removed a lot of people. >> Pegs has removed a lot of people. >> Pegs has removed a lot of people. >> He removes anybody who views as a >> He removes anybody who views as a >> He removes anybody who views as a threat. Is that the main thing? threat. Is that the main thing? threat. Is that the main thing? >> More competent than Helm, which is scary >> More competent than Helm, which is scary >> More competent than Helm, which is scary because the vast majority of people that because the vast majority of people that because the vast majority of people that advise him are far more competent than advise him are far more competent than advise him are far more competent than Helm. Helm. Helm. >> Do you think that's mostly about >> Do you think that's mostly about >> Do you think that's mostly about personality clashes about people who personality clashes about people who personality clashes about people who I think inherent insecurity of Hexa I I think inherent insecurity of Hexa I I think inherent insecurity of Hexa I love a room where my staff are smarter love a room where my staff are smarter love a room where my staff are smarter than me. I I cherish them when I'm in than me. I I cherish them when I'm in than me. I I cherish them when I'm in here and I see them sharing knowledge here and I see them sharing knowledge here and I see them sharing knowledge that I don't possess and don't intend that I don't possess and don't intend that I don't possess and don't intend to. to. to. >> Have you talked to any of the people >> Have you talked to any of the people >> Have you talked to any of the people he's removed? he's removed? he's removed? >> Yeah. Did they tell you why they thought >> Yeah. Did they tell you why they thought >> Yeah. Did they tell you why they thought they were removed?

they were removed? they were removed? >> They didn't feel like they were being >> They didn't feel like they were being >> They didn't feel like they were being listened to. It's like shut up, nod when listened to. It's like shut up, nod when listened to. It's like shut up, nod when I propose something sort of a I propose something sort of a I propose something sort of a environment. And we're at risk of of environment. And we're at risk of of environment. And we're at risk of of others. Um I think if if we don't get others. Um I think if if we don't get others. Um I think if if we don't get this under control. Look, I don't like I this under control. Look, I don't like I this under control. Look, I don't like I don't have anything personal against don't have anything personal against don't have anything personal against Pete Hagath. This is not a personal Pete Hagath. This is not a personal Pete Hagath. This is not a personal thing with me. He is not the right man thing with me. He is not the right man thing with me. He is not the right man for the job. for the job. for the job. >> But what do you think the president is >> But what do you think the president is >> But what do you think the president is thinking? I mean, have you talked to him thinking? I mean, have you talked to him thinking? I mean, have you talked to him about this? about this? about this? >> Uh the president I communicate. It's >> Uh the president I communicate. It's >> Uh the president I communicate. It's It's been about a week or so since we've It's been about a week or so since we've It's been about a week or so since we've last communicated. last communicated. last communicated. >> Have you communicated about Pete Hegsath >> Have you communicated about Pete Hegsath >> Have you communicated about Pete Hegsath recently? recently? recently? >> Um I have. I have. >> Um I have. I have. >> Um I have. I have. >> And And could you share any responses >> And And could you share any responses >> And And could you share any responses the president? the president? the president? >> It's not substantially different than I' >> It's not substantially different than I' >> It's not substantially different than I' you know, I've communicated publicly. you know, I've communicated publicly. you know, I've communicated publicly. I'm not going to uh I don't I don't know I'm not going to uh I don't I don't know I'm not going to uh I don't I don't know that the president's ever that the president's ever that the president's ever >> are his responses. >> are his responses. >> are his responses. >> I don't think he's ever directly >> I don't think he's ever directly >> I don't think he's ever directly responded um responded um responded um >> uh to he's taken it in and he hasn't >> uh to he's taken it in and he hasn't >> uh to he's taken it in and he hasn't pushed back, but I don't think he's pushed back, but I don't think he's pushed back, but I don't think he's directly if he did, I wouldn't tell you directly if he did, I wouldn't tell you directly if he did, I wouldn't tell you what he said. But uh I respect the what he said. But uh I respect the what he said. But uh I respect the president. I still feel like we have an president. I still feel like we have an president. I still feel like we have an odd relationship where I've clearly made odd relationship where I've clearly made odd relationship where I've clearly made him angry. But it took years before he him angry. But it took years before he him angry. But it took years before he even made the first negative comment even made the first negative comment even made the first negative comment about me. But I react to anybody on this about me. But I react to anybody on this about me. But I react to anybody on this earth the same way. If you come at me earth the same way. If you come at me earth the same way. If you come at me with with with with what I think is unfair or incorrect with what I think is unfair or incorrect with what I think is unfair or incorrect data, I'm going to come back after you.

data, I'm going to come back after you. data, I'm going to come back after you. >> All right, let's go next to another face >> All right, let's go next to another face >> All right, let's go next to another face on your cover, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., on your cover, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., on your cover, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., head of the Department of Health and head of the Department of Health and head of the Department of Health and Human Services. Human Services. Human Services. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um you also voted to confirm him. >> Um you also voted to confirm him. >> Um you also voted to confirm him. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> um >> um >> um >> what has been wrong with his tenure? >> what has been wrong with his tenure? >> what has been wrong with his tenure? >> Well, first I decided to confirm him >> Well, first I decided to confirm him >> Well, first I decided to confirm him because there are three Republican because there are three Republican because there are three Republican medical doctors on the health committee medical doctors on the health committee medical doctors on the health committee and on finance in total. And I had and on finance in total. And I had and on finance in total. And I had expressed to them that they're the expressed to them that they're the expressed to them that they're the subject matter experts here because subject matter experts here because subject matter experts here because they're on the committee and they also they're on the committee and they also they're on the committee and they also have the distinction of being medical have the distinction of being medical have the distinction of being medical doctors. And I said, "Guys, I again, I doctors. And I said, "Guys, I again, I doctors. And I said, "Guys, I again, I know where I don't have subject matter know where I don't have subject matter know where I don't have subject matter expertise." And I was relatively new to expertise." And I was relatively new to expertise." And I was relatively new to finance. Um, and so I said, "I'm going finance. Um, and so I said, "I'm going finance. Um, and so I said, "I'm going to go way you go." Um, uh, that's how I to go way you go." Um, uh, that's how I to go way you go." Um, uh, that's how I ultimately decided to confirm them. But ultimately decided to confirm them. But ultimately decided to confirm them. But my gosh, my gosh, my gosh, >> give me vaccine policy for God's sake. I >> give me vaccine policy for God's sake. I >> give me vaccine policy for God's sake. I mean, that's another thing that mean, that's another thing that mean, that's another thing that infuriates me that brings us back to infuriates me that brings us back to infuriates me that brings us back to that trailer park. Okay, this man has that trailer park. Okay, this man has that trailer park. Okay, this man has never wanted for anything in his life. never wanted for anything in his life. never wanted for anything in his life. He's gotten whatever medical care he He's gotten whatever medical care he He's gotten whatever medical care he needs. He may have a distorted view of needs. He may have a distorted view of needs. He may have a distorted view of how accessible it is and how diligent how accessible it is and how diligent how accessible it is and how diligent the parents are in making sure you get the parents are in making sure you get the parents are in making sure you get all those immunizations to things at the all those immunizations to things at the all those immunizations to things at the right time. But when you're in a trailer right time. But when you're in a trailer right time. But when you're in a trailer park and you hear a health secretary say park and you hear a health secretary say park and you hear a health secretary say maybe you don't need vaccines or instead maybe you don't need vaccines or instead maybe you don't need vaccines or instead of getting two combined when you're in of getting two combined when you're in of getting two combined when you're in there, you know, spread them out over there, you know, spread them out over there, you know, spread them out over time, that's great. If you're taking a time, that's great. If you're taking a time, that's great. If you're taking a limo to your doctor's appointment, it's limo to your doctor's appointment, it's limo to your doctor's appointment, it's not great. If you're taking a bus, it's not great. If you're taking a bus, it's not great. If you're taking a bus, it's likely they won't get that other vaccine likely they won't get that other vaccine likely they won't get that other vaccine and they'll get sicker. This is an

and they'll get sicker. This is an and they'll get sicker. This is an example where I think they're out of example where I think they're out of example where I think they're out of touch with the most at rest at risk touch with the most at rest at risk touch with the most at rest at risk strata of our population and uh standing strata of our population and uh standing strata of our population and uh standing by when we're having dramatic cuts and by when we're having dramatic cuts and by when we're having dramatic cuts and uh the NIH funding. It's irresponsible uh the NIH funding. It's irresponsible uh the NIH funding. It's irresponsible um and it's killing people. Steven um and it's killing people. Steven um and it's killing people. Steven Miller, president's adviser. Uh you call Miller, president's adviser. Uh you call Miller, president's adviser. Uh you call him the architect of most of the dumbest him the architect of most of the dumbest him the architect of most of the dumbest proposals from the Trump White House and proposals from the Trump White House and proposals from the Trump White House and the worm tongue of the Trump the worm tongue of the Trump the worm tongue of the Trump administration, which for those who are administration, which for those who are administration, which for those who are not readers of not readers of not readers of >> JRR Tolken is a reference to a uh >> JRR Tolken is a reference to a uh >> JRR Tolken is a reference to a uh >> a uh >> a uh >> a uh >> counselor, very bad, toxic counselor uh >> counselor, very bad, toxic counselor uh >> counselor, very bad, toxic counselor uh in those novels and in the movies. Um in those novels and in the movies. Um in those novels and in the movies. Um what are the dumb proposals that you what are the dumb proposals that you what are the dumb proposals that you have in mind? have in mind? have in mind? >> Look, he was absolutely the architect >> Look, he was absolutely the architect >> Look, he was absolutely the architect behind the execu the policy execution behind the execu the policy execution behind the execu the policy execution and homeland security. He was wanting to and homeland security. He was wanting to and homeland security. He was wanting to get the numbers up. He wanted to have get the numbers up. He wanted to have get the numbers up. He wanted to have thousands thousands thousands >> for deportation. >> for deportation. >> for deportation. >> Absolutely. We want thousands of people >> Absolutely. We want thousands of people >> Absolutely. We want thousands of people apprehended. Just an irrational way apprehended. Just an irrational way apprehended. Just an irrational way about going about things. Stephen Miller about going about things. Stephen Miller about going about things. Stephen Miller should be saying, "Mr. President, you in should be saying, "Mr. President, you in should be saying, "Mr. President, you in your first 90 days save the border. You your first 90 days save the border. You your first 90 days save the border. You shut it down. We have an orderly border shut it down. We have an orderly border shut it down. We have an orderly border for the first time in probably decades.

for the first time in probably decades. for the first time in probably decades. Let's codify it. Let's work with Let's codify it. Let's work with Let's codify it. Let's work with Congress to do it. Let's soften the Congress to do it. Let's soften the Congress to do it. Let's soften the edges of our image by maybe working on edges of our image by maybe working on edges of our image by maybe working on reasonable immigration reform, which the reasonable immigration reform, which the reasonable immigration reform, which the president supports. But instead, Miller president supports. But instead, Miller president supports. But instead, Miller never spends any time talking about never spends any time talking about never spends any time talking about cottifying policy to harden it against a cottifying policy to harden it against a cottifying policy to harden it against a future Democrat that could open the future Democrat that could open the future Democrat that could open the border. and he spends time alienating border. and he spends time alienating border. and he spends time alienating the Latino base and legally present the Latino base and legally present the Latino base and legally present people in the process and then has all people in the process and then has all people in the process and then has all the missteps in Minnesota and across the the missteps in Minnesota and across the the missteps in Minnesota and across the country. This goes to show you just how country. This goes to show you just how country. This goes to show you just how incompetent this man is to not recognize incompetent this man is to not recognize incompetent this man is to not recognize the political window that we were the political window that we were the political window that we were operating within. You you know I mean operating within. You you know I mean operating within. You you know I mean the election for one of the first times the election for one of the first times the election for one of the first times immigration and the border open border immigration and the border open border immigration and the border open border was a meaningful issue to get out the was a meaningful issue to get out the was a meaningful issue to get out the vote. we should have implemented and vote. we should have implemented and vote. we should have implemented and codified the policies that were working codified the policies that were working codified the policies that were working in the first six months. Had plenty of in the first six months. Had plenty of in the first six months. Had plenty of time to do it. Um and instead he doesn't time to do it. Um and instead he doesn't time to do it. Um and instead he doesn't even think about it. There was never a even think about it. There was never a even think about it. There was never a serious proposal from the White House to serious proposal from the White House to serious proposal from the White House to to to to to to to >> but this is a this is a pattern for the >> but this is a this is a pattern for the >> but this is a this is a pattern for the second Trump administration. Right. They second Trump administration. Right. They second Trump administration. Right. They like doing things through executive like doing things through executive like doing things through executive order. Yeah.

order. Yeah. order. Yeah. >> They don't like going through Congress. >> They don't like going through Congress. >> They don't like going through Congress. >> Yeah. and get ready because probably in >> Yeah. and get ready because probably in >> Yeah. and get ready because probably in the same way that the president's broken the same way that the president's broken the same way that the president's broken a record for uh rescending executive a record for uh rescending executive a record for uh rescending executive orders, implementing his own, it's going orders, implementing his own, it's going orders, implementing his own, it's going to be beaten by a liberal uh president, to be beaten by a liberal uh president, to be beaten by a liberal uh president, the next liberal president who comes in. the next liberal president who comes in. the next liberal president who comes in. They're going to use the Trump president They're going to use the Trump president They're going to use the Trump president as a reason president as a reason for as a reason president as a reason for as a reason president as a reason for for doing it. for doing it. for doing it. >> There are people in the White House who >> There are people in the White House who >> There are people in the White House who you like. you like. you like. >> Yeah. A lot. >> Yeah. A lot. >> Yeah. A lot. >> And >> And >> And >> more than the majority. >> more than the majority. >> more than the majority. >> The majority. >> The majority. >> The majority. >> Who do you like in the administration? >> Who do you like in the administration? >> Who do you like in the administration? >> Besson's a great Treasury Secretary. Uh, >> Besson's a great Treasury Secretary. Uh, >> Besson's a great Treasury Secretary. Uh, Wright's doing fine in energy. Bergam's Wright's doing fine in energy. Bergam's Wright's doing fine in energy. Bergam's fine in interior. Um, I could go down fine in interior. Um, I could go down fine in interior. Um, I could go down the list and for those of you that I the list and for those of you that I the list and for those of you that I didn't list, I'm giving you examples of didn't list, I'm giving you examples of didn't list, I'm giving you examples of a majority of the cabinet I'm okay with. a majority of the cabinet I'm okay with. a majority of the cabinet I'm okay with. >> You're very circumspect in the book >> You're very circumspect in the book >> You're very circumspect in the book about the vice president of the United about the vice president of the United about the vice president of the United States. States. States. >> What's your take on JD Vance? >> What's your take on JD Vance? >> What's your take on JD Vance? >> Well, JD's politics today bear no >> Well, JD's politics today bear no >> Well, JD's politics today bear no resemblance to the JD that um uh that resemblance to the JD that um uh that resemblance to the JD that um uh that that campaign to be a senator. Let's that campaign to be a senator. Let's that campaign to be a senator. Let's just be be honest with ourselves. you just be be honest with ourselves. you just be be honest with ourselves. you know, he's supposed to be a kind of a know, he's supposed to be a kind of a know, he's supposed to be a kind of a limited government, no wars pres uh uh limited government, no wars pres uh uh limited government, no wars pres uh uh kind of person and he's excusing uh kind of person and he's excusing uh kind of person and he's excusing uh wars. He's excusing cozying up with wars. He's excusing cozying up with wars. He's excusing cozying up with Russia and uh that's but we're far away Russia and uh that's but we're far away Russia and uh that's but we're far away from LZ fair economic theory that we from LZ fair economic theory that we from LZ fair economic theory that we could possibly imagine. My gosh, he could possibly imagine. My gosh, he could possibly imagine. My gosh, he hadn't said a single negative word about hadn't said a single negative word about hadn't said a single negative word about the fact that we have equity stakes in the fact that we have equity stakes in the fact that we have equity stakes in 10 or more companies that we've 10 or more companies that we've 10 or more companies that we've essentially made stateowned enterprises essentially made stateowned enterprises essentially made stateowned enterprises by our share. Does anybody really by our share. Does anybody really by our share. Does anybody really believe that if the US government uh has believe that if the US government uh has believe that if the US government uh has an equity stake in these companies that

an equity stake in these companies that an equity stake in these companies that any of the other board votes count? any of the other board votes count? any of the other board votes count? >> You don't think he's a conservative? >> You don't think he's a conservative? >> You don't think he's a conservative? >> Uh I think he's a populist that has some >> Uh I think he's a populist that has some >> Uh I think he's a populist that has some conservative uh leanings, but he's not conservative uh leanings, but he's not conservative uh leanings, but he's not going to let that stop him from, you going to let that stop him from, you going to let that stop him from, you know, looking the other way with the know, looking the other way with the know, looking the other way with the equity stakes that I've talked about and equity stakes that I've talked about and equity stakes that I've talked about and other big government policies. I mean, I other big government policies. I mean, I other big government policies. I mean, I don't think he said anything about don't think he said anything about don't think he said anything about promising people $5,000 checks and a promising people $5,000 checks and a promising people $5,000 checks and a trillion dollar uh, you know, a trillion trillion dollar uh, you know, a trillion trillion dollar uh, you know, a trillion dollar expenditure that dollar expenditure that dollar expenditure that >> neither neither has any. I mean, if >> neither neither has any. I mean, if >> neither neither has any. I mean, if you're a member of the Trump cabinet, you're a member of the Trump cabinet, you're a member of the Trump cabinet, you're not going to, you know, Secretary you're not going to, you know, Secretary you're not going to, you know, Secretary Bess hasn't hasn't criticized. Bess hasn't hasn't criticized. Bess hasn't hasn't criticized. >> There's a difference there's a >> There's a difference there's a >> There's a difference there's a difference between the vice president difference between the vice president difference between the vice president and the rest of them. All the rest can and the rest of them. All the rest can and the rest of them. All the rest can be fired. I like JD Vance. Again, I be fired. I like JD Vance. Again, I be fired. I like JD Vance. Again, I don't take any of this stuff personally. don't take any of this stuff personally. don't take any of this stuff personally. I'm giving him an assessment, an I'm giving him an assessment, an I'm giving him an assessment, an organizational assessment. You need to organizational assessment. You need to organizational assessment. You need to understand, I fired my best friend. I understand, I fired my best friend. I understand, I fired my best friend. I literally did and we managed to stay literally did and we managed to stay literally did and we managed to stay friends. But, uh, this is not personal friends. But, uh, this is not personal friends. But, uh, this is not personal to me. You're either the right person to to me. You're either the right person to to me. You're either the right person to be on the field or not. be on the field or not. be on the field or not. >> Why can't the good people who you like >> Why can't the good people who you like >> Why can't the good people who you like in the White House, and you just said in the White House, and you just said in the White House, and you just said it's a majority, you said you like a lot it's a majority, you said you like a lot it's a majority, you said you like a lot of people in the cabinet. Why do they of people in the cabinet. Why do they of people in the cabinet. Why do they kept getting, you know, run over by the kept getting, you know, run over by the kept getting, you know, run over by the people on the cover of your book or the people on the cover of your book or the people on the cover of your book or the people you don't like? Um, I think that people you don't like? Um, I think that people you don't like? Um, I think that there are some people in the in and there are some people in the in and there are some people in the in and around the president who have an around the president who have an around the president who have an outsized influence over him. And uh, I outsized influence over him. And uh, I outsized influence over him. And uh, I do believe that the people that have the do believe that the people that have the do believe that the people that have the last word with the president have the last word with the president have the last word with the president have the heaviest weight, particularly if there's heaviest weight, particularly if there's heaviest weight, particularly if there's some of his inner circle. My guess is some of his inner circle. My guess is some of his inner circle. My guess is there there are some cabinet members who there there are some cabinet members who there there are some cabinet members who are saying, "President, you need to look

are saying, "President, you need to look are saying, "President, you need to look around the corner." And then they get around the corner." And then they get around the corner." And then they get into a room and either the president's into a room and either the president's into a room and either the president's dismissive dismissive dismissive >> and none of his inner circle pushes back >> and none of his inner circle pushes back >> and none of his inner circle pushes back or somebody in his interpersonal circle or somebody in his interpersonal circle or somebody in his interpersonal circle or in in his his circle say ah we don't or in in his his circle say ah we don't or in in his his circle say ah we don't believe that and they move on. believe that and they move on. believe that and they move on. >> Who is that besides the people we've >> Who is that besides the people we've >> Who is that besides the people we've been talking about? been talking about? been talking about? >> I think Howard Lutnik's clearly one of >> I think Howard Lutnik's clearly one of >> I think Howard Lutnik's clearly one of I'm no fan of Howard Lutnik. He I'm no fan of Howard Lutnik. He I'm no fan of Howard Lutnik. He apparently thinks that we have money apparently thinks that we have money apparently thinks that we have money genies that uh can create this trillion genies that uh can create this trillion genies that uh can create this trillion dollars and not use taxpayer expenses. I dollars and not use taxpayer expenses. I dollars and not use taxpayer expenses. I need to figure out how that works need to figure out how that works need to figure out how that works because we need about 40 trillion of uh because we need about 40 trillion of uh because we need about 40 trillion of uh those to retire our debt. So, he's one those to retire our debt. So, he's one those to retire our debt. So, he's one that I think has an outsized influence that I think has an outsized influence that I think has an outsized influence over the president. And again, with over the president. And again, with over the president. And again, with Lutnik, he's treating this like a Lutnik, he's treating this like a Lutnik, he's treating this like a business. This is not a business. business. This is not a business. business. This is not a business. >> What don't they understand about the >> What don't they understand about the >> What don't they understand about the Senate and Congress, Senate and Congress, Senate and Congress, >> that we're a co-equal branch and they're >> that we're a co-equal branch and they're >> that we're a co-equal branch and they're at our best when they treat us like a at our best when they treat us like a at our best when they treat us like a peer. peer. peer. >> But this runs both ways, right? that >> But this runs both ways, right? that >> But this runs both ways, right? that they're more likely to treat you as a they're more likely to treat you as a they're more likely to treat you as a co-equal branch if you act like a co-equal branch if you act like a co-equal branch if you act like a co-equal branch. co-equal branch. co-equal branch. >> Do you think the Republican Senate in >> Do you think the Republican Senate in >> Do you think the Republican Senate in Trump 2.0 has acted like a co-equal Trump 2.0 has acted like a co-equal Trump 2.0 has acted like a co-equal branch?

branch? branch? >> Uh, I think in some cases, yes, in most >> Uh, I think in some cases, yes, in most >> Uh, I think in some cases, yes, in most cases, no. And I would say the same cases, no. And I would say the same cases, no. And I would say the same thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate under Biden and Obama. under Biden and Obama. under Biden and Obama. >> Look, we always make the mistake when >> Look, we always make the mistake when >> Look, we always make the mistake when our guys in office of conveying power to our guys in office of conveying power to our guys in office of conveying power to the White House, and I've had a real the White House, and I've had a real the White House, and I've had a real problem with that because it almost problem with that because it almost problem with that because it almost always comes back to bite you. You always comes back to bite you. You always comes back to bite you. You mentioned already the power over mentioned already the power over mentioned already the power over nominations is one of the key obvious nominations is one of the key obvious nominations is one of the key obvious powers the Senate has. Why didn't you powers the Senate has. Why didn't you powers the Senate has. Why didn't you use that power use that power use that power >> to try and block Robert Kennedy Jr. and >> to try and block Robert Kennedy Jr. and >> to try and block Robert Kennedy Jr. and Pete Hack? Pete Hack? Pete Hack? >> And uh it was all timing. Look, all >> And uh it was all timing. Look, all >> And uh it was all timing. Look, all these were happening in the first these were happening in the first these were happening in the first quarter of the president's quarter of the president's quarter of the president's administration. administration. administration. And I think the president is entitled to And I think the president is entitled to And I think the president is entitled to have the people he wants in the office. have the people he wants in the office. have the people he wants in the office. So, I got to strike that balance between So, I got to strike that balance between So, I got to strike that balance between my own idealized view of a nominee and my own idealized view of a nominee and my own idealized view of a nominee and what he wants. I don't want the story to what he wants. I don't want the story to what he wants. I don't want the story to be, you know, Republicans are beating be, you know, Republicans are beating be, you know, Republicans are beating themselves up. So, on the margins, I'm themselves up. So, on the margins, I'm themselves up. So, on the margins, I'm going to go with what they want, even if going to go with what they want, even if going to go with what they want, even if I have some misgivings, unless I can I have some misgivings, unless I can I have some misgivings, unless I can find something compelling and concrete find something compelling and concrete find something compelling and concrete that I consider disqualifying. And I that I consider disqualifying. And I that I consider disqualifying. And I could not find that in the time frame could not find that in the time frame could not find that in the time frame that I had on HEX. You say in the book that I had on HEX. You say in the book that I had on HEX. You say in the book that at least 30 of your Republican that at least 30 of your Republican that at least 30 of your Republican colleagues in the Senate express colleagues in the Senate express colleagues in the Senate express reservations Yeah. about many of the reservations Yeah. about many of the reservations Yeah. about many of the president's actions in private. Why president's actions in private. Why president's actions in private. Why can't in cases like Heg said, those 30 can't in cases like Heg said, those 30 can't in cases like Heg said, those 30 turn into five votes turn into five votes turn into five votes >> against confirmation that gets you a

>> against confirmation that gets you a >> against confirmation that gets you a different Secretary of Defense. different Secretary of Defense. different Secretary of Defense. >> Okay. There are some that just really do >> Okay. There are some that just really do >> Okay. There are some that just really do not want to not want to not want to >> they don't want to put their >> they don't want to put their >> they don't want to put their >> they don't want to bear the weight of >> they don't want to bear the weight of >> they don't want to bear the weight of the president. I get that. You're up for the president. I get that. You're up for the president. I get that. You're up for reelection, he'll target you in a reelection, he'll target you in a reelection, he'll target you in a primary. Um and so look, you know what primary. Um and so look, you know what primary. Um and so look, you know what all martyrs have in common? all martyrs have in common? all martyrs have in common? >> They're dead. There were probably a few >> They're dead. There were probably a few >> They're dead. There were probably a few instances where if we kind of ripped the instances where if we kind of ripped the instances where if we kind of ripped the band-aid off early, then I think we'd band-aid off early, then I think we'd band-aid off early, then I think we'd had a lot better midterm environment had a lot better midterm environment had a lot better midterm environment than we're confronted with now. Describe than we're confronted with now. Describe than we're confronted with now. Describe the pressure that gets exerted on you or the pressure that gets exerted on you or the pressure that gets exerted on you or any of those 30 anonymous skeptical any of those 30 anonymous skeptical any of those 30 anonymous skeptical senators when they're thinking about senators when they're thinking about senators when they're thinking about casting a vote against a presidential casting a vote against a presidential casting a vote against a presidential nominee or any presidential policy. What nominee or any presidential policy. What nominee or any presidential policy. What form does that take? form does that take? form does that take? >> Oh, it can be intense with ads >> Oh, it can be intense with ads >> Oh, it can be intense with ads >> uh uh and and l like calling over to the >> uh uh and and l like calling over to the >> uh uh and and l like calling over to the White House. you saw with um you've seen White House. you saw with um you've seen White House. you saw with um you've seen busfuls of House members that are far busfuls of House members that are far busfuls of House members that are far more susceptible than than senator the more susceptible than than senator the more susceptible than than senator the in any given cycle to primaries being in any given cycle to primaries being in any given cycle to primaries being busted over you know doing the Jedi mind busted over you know doing the Jedi mind busted over you know doing the Jedi mind trick on you will vote for the big trick on you will vote for the big trick on you will vote for the big beautiful bill it's called whipping okay beautiful bill it's called whipping okay beautiful bill it's called whipping okay that's what we do we whip a voter an that's what we do we whip a voter an that's what we do we whip a voter an outcome but they were intense and a lot outcome but they were intense and a lot outcome but they were intense and a lot of people had a tough time with the of people had a tough time with the of people had a tough time with the pressure pressure pressure >> why didn't you want to run for >> why didn't you want to run for >> why didn't you want to run for reelection reelection reelection >> I didn't want to run the second time in >> I didn't want to run the second time in >> I didn't want to run the second time in fact I decided not to and I talked with fact I decided not to and I talked with fact I decided not to and I talked with a few people after I decided not to that a few people after I decided not to that a few people after I decided not to that uh convinced me that u if I didn't then uh convinced me that u if I didn't then uh convinced me that u if I didn't then we'd probably lose the seat. They were we'd probably lose the seat. They were we'd probably lose the seat. They were right if you take a look at it and uh I right if you take a look at it and uh I right if you take a look at it and uh I did not want to have that weight on me.

did not want to have that weight on me. did not want to have that weight on me. But you could if you do that every cycle But you could if you do that every cycle But you could if you do that every cycle that's how you become 120 in the US that's how you become 120 in the US that's how you become 120 in the US Senate. I can find other ways to Senate. I can find other ways to Senate. I can find other ways to probably contribute. It's time for probably contribute. It's time for probably contribute. It's time for somebody else to step up. And I'm not so somebody else to step up. And I'm not so somebody else to step up. And I'm not so arrogant as to think that with a state arrogant as to think that with a state arrogant as to think that with a state of 10 million people that I'm the best of 10 million people that I'm the best of 10 million people that I'm the best possible option. There's plenty of possible option. There's plenty of possible option. There's plenty of people out there. They need to get out people out there. They need to get out people out there. They need to get out and take a dip in it and uh be and take a dip in it and uh be and take a dip in it and uh be patriotic. patriotic. patriotic. >> We also spoke to Senator Tillis in a >> We also spoke to Senator Tillis in a >> We also spoke to Senator Tillis in a Senate hearing room asking him about his Senate hearing room asking him about his Senate hearing room asking him about his public grillings of some of President public grillings of some of President public grillings of some of President Trump's officials, including former Trump's officials, including former Trump's officials, including former Department of Homeland Security Department of Homeland Security Department of Homeland Security Secretary Christy Gnome. What makes the Secretary Christy Gnome. What makes the Secretary Christy Gnome. What makes the difference between a really good difference between a really good difference between a really good grilling and just bloating at someone? grilling and just bloating at someone? grilling and just bloating at someone? >> An outcome. you know, when I have uh I I >> An outcome. you know, when I have uh I I >> An outcome. you know, when I have uh I I don't take the oversight role lightly. I don't take the oversight role lightly. I don't take the oversight role lightly. I don't like abusing the uh power that we don't like abusing the uh power that we don't like abusing the uh power that we have at the dis with witnesses. Um and have at the dis with witnesses. Um and have at the dis with witnesses. Um and so when you hear me do that, it's not so when you hear me do that, it's not so when you hear me do that, it's not for viral. It's to shed light on a for viral. It's to shed light on a for viral. It's to shed light on a problem. We did that with Christine problem. We did that with Christine problem. We did that with Christine Nolan.

Nolan. Nolan. >> The fact that you can't admit to a >> The fact that you can't admit to a >> The fact that you can't admit to a mistake which looks like under mistake which looks like under mistake which looks like under investigation is going to prove that investigation is going to prove that investigation is going to prove that Miss Good and Mr. Pretty probably should Miss Good and Mr. Pretty probably should Miss Good and Mr. Pretty probably should not have been shot in the face and in not have been shot in the face and in not have been shot in the face and in the back. I'm not very often that angry, the back. I'm not very often that angry, the back. I'm not very often that angry, but when I'm angry, I believe there's a but when I'm angry, I believe there's a but when I'm angry, I believe there's a reason behind it and people should reason behind it and people should reason behind it and people should listen. listen. listen. >> What were you thinking then? What had >> What were you thinking then? What had >> What were you thinking then? What had gone wrong with her tenure? gone wrong with her tenure? gone wrong with her tenure? >> I was thinking about the $200 million >> I was thinking about the $200 million >> I was thinking about the $200 million that the Department of Homeland Security that the Department of Homeland Security that the Department of Homeland Security was spending on an ad campaign with her was spending on an ad campaign with her was spending on an ad campaign with her riding a horse. I was thinking about her riding a horse. I was thinking about her riding a horse. I was thinking about her calling people that were shot calling people that were shot calling people that were shot potentially domestic terrorists. Has potentially domestic terrorists. Has potentially domestic terrorists. Has proven not to be true. proven not to be true. proven not to be true. >> Why do you think the president picked >> Why do you think the president picked >> Why do you think the president picked her? I think there are some people that her? I think there are some people that her? I think there are some people that are in the cabinet because to use the are in the cabinet because to use the are in the cabinet because to use the president's term, they're right out of president's term, they're right out of president's term, they're right out of central casting. I think Nome and Hexath central casting. I think Nome and Hexath central casting. I think Nome and Hexath are probably the poster children for men are probably the poster children for men are probably the poster children for men and women who should never have the and women who should never have the and women who should never have the authority they've been granted. authority they've been granted. authority they've been granted. >> You got to watch Elon Musk >> You got to watch Elon Musk >> You got to watch Elon Musk >> come in and run the Department of >> come in and run the Department of >> come in and run the Department of Government efficiency. Government efficiency. Government efficiency. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What did you make of Doge? >> What did you make of Doge? >> What did you make of Doge? >> I knew it was doomed from the beginning.

>> I knew it was doomed from the beginning. >> I knew it was doomed from the beginning. Um, and the reason for that, I met Elon Um, and the reason for that, I met Elon Um, and the reason for that, I met Elon Musk is brilliant. I'm a huge fan of Musk is brilliant. I'm a huge fan of Musk is brilliant. I'm a huge fan of Elon Musk. What he's done to advance uh Elon Musk. What he's done to advance uh Elon Musk. What he's done to advance uh rocket research and private sector, it's rocket research and private sector, it's rocket research and private sector, it's enormous. But, you know, just because enormous. But, you know, just because enormous. But, you know, just because you're a billionaire or almost a you're a billionaire or almost a you're a billionaire or almost a trillionaire or or just because you're trillionaire or or just because you're trillionaire or or just because you're successful in one field doesn't mean successful in one field doesn't mean successful in one field doesn't mean that you know how to do enterprise that you know how to do enterprise that you know how to do enterprise transformation, how to drive efficiency. transformation, how to drive efficiency. transformation, how to drive efficiency. I don't know of a single dollar that's I don't know of a single dollar that's I don't know of a single dollar that's been booked as a result of Doge. How been booked as a result of Doge. How been booked as a result of Doge. How many times did we have like a reduction many times did we have like a reduction many times did we have like a reduction in force by email and then have to in force by email and then have to in force by email and then have to withdraw it and bring people back? Well, withdraw it and bring people back? Well, withdraw it and bring people back? Well, what happens there? are the really what happens there? are the really what happens there? are the really really talented people probably aren't really talented people probably aren't really talented people probably aren't going to come back or they're only going going to come back or they're only going going to come back or they're only going to come back long enough to get the heck to come back long enough to get the heck to come back long enough to get the heck out of government. out of government. out of government. >> The Trump administration did end up >> The Trump administration did end up >> The Trump administration did end up raising tariffs on just about everybody. raising tariffs on just about everybody. raising tariffs on just about everybody. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Were you in favor of that? >> Were you in favor of that? >> Were you in favor of that? >> No. I wrote a letter to my conference >> No. I wrote a letter to my conference >> No. I wrote a letter to my conference the week after so-called liberation day the week after so-called liberation day the week after so-called liberation day and said this is going to end badly. It and said this is going to end badly. It and said this is going to end badly. It was obvious to me. Look, uh, number one, was obvious to me. Look, uh, number one, was obvious to me. Look, uh, number one, uh, how on earth can you declare using, uh, how on earth can you declare using, uh, how on earth can you declare using, uh, emergency powers to impose a tariff, uh, emergency powers to impose a tariff, uh, emergency powers to impose a tariff, a 50% tariff on a country that has a a 50% tariff on a country that has a a 50% tariff on a country that has a trade surplus with the United States.

trade surplus with the United States. trade surplus with the United States. It's what he did to Brazil. Even the It's what he did to Brazil. Even the It's what he did to Brazil. Even the tariff amounts themselves in the tariff amounts themselves in the tariff amounts themselves in the countries were nonsensical. It was countries were nonsensical. It was countries were nonsensical. It was another example of where Letic thought another example of where Letic thought another example of where Letic thought it was going to be found money. He it was going to be found money. He it was going to be found money. He thought he was going to find a trillion thought he was going to find a trillion thought he was going to find a trillion dollars that he could then invest and dollars that he could then invest and dollars that he could then invest and maybe invest our way out of the debt, maybe invest our way out of the debt, maybe invest our way out of the debt, which conceptually I agree with, but which conceptually I agree with, but which conceptually I agree with, but there were a lot of kinks in that slinky there were a lot of kinks in that slinky there were a lot of kinks in that slinky that he did not anticipate. So, they've that he did not anticipate. So, they've that he did not anticipate. So, they've created more uncertainty. People don't created more uncertainty. People don't created more uncertainty. People don't even know when they buy something how even know when they buy something how even know when they buy something how much it's really going to cost. Um, now, much it's really going to cost. Um, now, much it's really going to cost. Um, now, should they have tailored and use should they have tailored and use should they have tailored and use sanctions to go after bad actors? 100%. sanctions to go after bad actors? 100%. sanctions to go after bad actors? 100%. China, India, even some of our European China, India, even some of our European China, India, even some of our European uh uh allies, even in some cases, uh uh allies, even in some cases, uh uh allies, even in some cases, there's a valid reason for Canada. But there's a valid reason for Canada. But there's a valid reason for Canada. But this sort of shock and awe and think this sort of shock and awe and think this sort of shock and awe and think that there wasn't going to be a counter that there wasn't going to be a counter that there wasn't going to be a counter and people kind of rethinking whether or and people kind of rethinking whether or and people kind of rethinking whether or not they should depend on the United not they should depend on the United not they should depend on the United States going forward like they have in States going forward like they have in States going forward like they have in the past. Those were the unintended the past. Those were the unintended the past. Those were the unintended consequences of you know a halfbaked consequences of you know a halfbaked consequences of you know a halfbaked idea. And I and I lay that primarily at idea. And I and I lay that primarily at idea. And I and I lay that primarily at Howard Lutnik's feet. We're headed into Howard Lutnik's feet. We're headed into Howard Lutnik's feet. We're headed into an election year. Inflation is creeping an election year. Inflation is creeping an election year. Inflation is creeping back. Interest rates were just raised.

back. Interest rates were just raised. back. Interest rates were just raised. We're in an escalating trade war with We're in an escalating trade war with We're in an escalating trade war with Canada. Gas prices are still elevated. Canada. Gas prices are still elevated. Canada. Gas prices are still elevated. Who's to blame for all this? Who's to blame for all this? Who's to blame for all this? >> Well, first, uh, I don't think when >> Well, first, uh, I don't think when >> Well, first, uh, I don't think when Republicans are out campaigning, um, Republicans are out campaigning, um, Republicans are out campaigning, um, that they're not mindful of that they're not mindful of that they're not mindful of affordability problems. This is a this affordability problems. This is a this affordability problems. This is a this is the situation that I have with the is the situation that I have with the is the situation that I have with the president, some of his adviserss saying president, some of his adviserss saying president, some of his adviserss saying it's a hoax. The president needs to it's a hoax. The president needs to it's a hoax. The president needs to understand that not everybody grew up in understand that not everybody grew up in understand that not everybody grew up in the circumstances that he did. We need the circumstances that he did. We need the circumstances that he did. We need to show empathy to people who when they to show empathy to people who when they to show empathy to people who when they see the president of the United States see the president of the United States see the president of the United States on TV saying the affordability thing is on TV saying the affordability thing is on TV saying the affordability thing is a hoax and they're trying to figure out a hoax and they're trying to figure out a hoax and they're trying to figure out how they're going to pay for food. Um how they're going to pay for food. Um how they're going to pay for food. Um it's uh it's not a good look and it it's uh it's not a good look and it it's uh it's not a good look and it could have electoral consequences. could have electoral consequences. could have electoral consequences. >> Well, speaking of the president though, >> Well, speaking of the president though, >> Well, speaking of the president though, how much of this is just his foreign how much of this is just his foreign how much of this is just his foreign policy and the war in Iran, right? Like policy and the war in Iran, right? Like policy and the war in Iran, right? Like if you took away the Iran war, if the if you took away the Iran war, if the if you took away the Iran war, if the straight of Horm moves were fully open, straight of Horm moves were fully open, straight of Horm moves were fully open, you know, you'd still have affordability you know, you'd still have affordability you know, you'd still have affordability issues, but things would be a lot issues, but things would be a lot issues, but things would be a lot better, right? better, right? better, right? >> We would uh we'd probably have more of >> We would uh we'd probably have more of >> We would uh we'd probably have more of the traditional headwinds in a in a the traditional headwinds in a in a the traditional headwinds in a in a midterm uh than the kind of headwinds midterm uh than the kind of headwinds midterm uh than the kind of headwinds that we're having that are almost 2010 that we're having that are almost 2010 that we're having that are almost 2010 like in my opinion.

like in my opinion. like in my opinion. >> You supported the Iran intervention when >> You supported the Iran intervention when >> You supported the Iran intervention when when it started. Would you have when it started. Would you have when it started. Would you have supported it if you'd known that it supported it if you'd known that it supported it if you'd known that it would still be going on as an open-ended would still be going on as an open-ended would still be going on as an open-ended conflict six months later? conflict six months later? conflict six months later? >> Uh, I'm not sure that I would have. We >> Uh, I'm not sure that I would have. We >> Uh, I'm not sure that I would have. We are forgetting how everybody, even the are forgetting how everybody, even the are forgetting how everybody, even the Democrats, were struggling to criticize Democrats, were struggling to criticize Democrats, were struggling to criticize the president for the exquisite the president for the exquisite the president for the exquisite capabilities that our men and women in capabilities that our men and women in capabilities that our men and women in uniform executed to degrade Iran's uniform executed to degrade Iran's uniform executed to degrade Iran's nuclear capabilities. The problem is, I nuclear capabilities. The problem is, I nuclear capabilities. The problem is, I think people like Hegsth thought that think people like Hegsth thought that think people like Hegsth thought that every engagement was going to be that every engagement was going to be that every engagement was going to be that way. And uh and what we should have done way. And uh and what we should have done way. And uh and what we should have done shortly after that success, maybe being shortly after that success, maybe being shortly after that success, maybe being strategic with some of their strike strategic with some of their strike strategic with some of their strike capabilities, is immediately move to capabilities, is immediately move to capabilities, is immediately move to some of the economic strategy that some of the economic strategy that some of the economic strategy that Secretary Bisson is moving on. Now, in Secretary Bisson is moving on. Now, in Secretary Bisson is moving on. Now, in my opinion, what we're doing now through my opinion, what we're doing now through my opinion, what we're doing now through financial measures should have been the financial measures should have been the financial measures should have been the second wave probably starting sometime second wave probably starting sometime second wave probably starting sometime in March or April. in March or April. in March or April. >> Speaking of difficult military >> Speaking of difficult military >> Speaking of difficult military campaigns, you just got back from campaigns, you just got back from campaigns, you just got back from Ukraine. What's your assessment of that Ukraine. What's your assessment of that Ukraine. What's your assessment of that war right now?

war right now? war right now? >> Uh the Ukrainian people are doing an >> Uh the Ukrainian people are doing an >> Uh the Ukrainian people are doing an extraordinary job. Uh Putin Putin can be extraordinary job. Uh Putin Putin can be extraordinary job. Uh Putin Putin can be defeated there. He must be defeated defeated there. He must be defeated defeated there. He must be defeated there. There's no such thing as a there. There's no such thing as a there. There's no such thing as a win-win outcome in Ukraine. I win-win outcome in Ukraine. I win-win outcome in Ukraine. I respectfully disagree with Kushner on respectfully disagree with Kushner on respectfully disagree with Kushner on that characterization. Uh sanctions that characterization. Uh sanctions that characterization. Uh sanctions bills at the president's desk. Now bills at the president's desk. Now bills at the president's desk. Now Putin's already planning on freezing Putin's already planning on freezing Putin's already planning on freezing Ukrainians to death this winter. They're Ukrainians to death this winter. They're Ukrainians to death this winter. They're attacking the electric grid. They're attacking the electric grid. They're attacking the electric grid. They're trying to eliminate steam which is trying to eliminate steam which is trying to eliminate steam which is distributed in places like uh this distributed in places like uh this distributed in places like uh this winter to literally freeze civilians to winter to literally freeze civilians to winter to literally freeze civilians to death. That's the sort of terror that death. That's the sort of terror that death. That's the sort of terror that Putin's bringing to uh to Ukraine. We Putin's bringing to uh to Ukraine. We Putin's bringing to uh to Ukraine. We need the sanctions to be implemented and need the sanctions to be implemented and need the sanctions to be implemented and we need Putin to lose. Not a win-win, we need Putin to lose. Not a win-win, we need Putin to lose. Not a win-win, not a face saving measure. This is a not a face saving measure. This is a not a face saving measure. This is a this is a battle between the free world this is a battle between the free world this is a battle between the free world and totalitarianism. and totalitarianism. and totalitarianism. And there's no room for a win-win in And there's no room for a win-win in And there's no room for a win-win in that scenario in my estimation. that scenario in my estimation. that scenario in my estimation. >> Do you think the president's done >> Do you think the president's done >> Do you think the president's done enough? enough? enough? >> No. Frankly, I I hate it. The uh the uh >> No. Frankly, I I hate it. The uh the uh >> No. Frankly, I I hate it. The uh the uh deference that was paid to Putin in deference that was paid to Putin in deference that was paid to Putin in Alaska. Um I know that the president's a Alaska. Um I know that the president's a Alaska. Um I know that the president's a dealmaker. He wants to make things come dealmaker. He wants to make things come dealmaker. He wants to make things come to the table. That's great in a business to the table. That's great in a business to the table. That's great in a business world, but we're talking about a world, but we're talking about a world, but we're talking about a murderer.

murderer. murderer. >> Give me your big picture take on Trump >> Give me your big picture take on Trump >> Give me your big picture take on Trump and Putin. What does the president think and Putin. What does the president think and Putin. What does the president think about Russia and Ukraine? Really? I um I about Russia and Ukraine? Really? I um I about Russia and Ukraine? Really? I um I you know I I don't know if I can get you know I I don't know if I can get you know I I don't know if I can get inside the president's head on this one, inside the president's head on this one, inside the president's head on this one, but if you've got a country that's now but if you've got a country that's now but if you've got a country that's now gone from being attacked to the largest gone from being attacked to the largest gone from being attacked to the largest most powerful military in Europe, do you most powerful military in Europe, do you most powerful military in Europe, do you really want that to fall to Russia? And really want that to fall to Russia? And really want that to fall to Russia? And I think I don't know if the president I think I don't know if the president I think I don't know if the president really understands just how profound really understands just how profound really understands just how profound that is or if anybody's really explained that is or if anybody's really explained that is or if anybody's really explained it to him that way. but with with it to him that way. but with with it to him that way. but with with defense guarantees and pushing uh Putin defense guarantees and pushing uh Putin defense guarantees and pushing uh Putin further back and denying him his vision further back and denying him his vision further back and denying him his vision of reestablishing the Russian Empire. of reestablishing the Russian Empire. of reestablishing the Russian Empire. That's it. It's it's the most enormous That's it. It's it's the most enormous That's it. It's it's the most enormous win. Creating an additional buffer win. Creating an additional buffer win. Creating an additional buffer between us and NATO countries for between us and NATO countries for between us and NATO countries for building an economic relationship with a building an economic relationship with a building an economic relationship with a reformed and emerging Ukraine. that that reformed and emerging Ukraine. that that reformed and emerging Ukraine. that that should be his legacy. Not creating a should be his legacy. Not creating a should be his legacy. Not creating a win-win with one of the most vicious, win-win with one of the most vicious, win-win with one of the most vicious, murderous, desperates that's ever lived. murderous, desperates that's ever lived. murderous, desperates that's ever lived. >> Let's talk about a different national >> Let's talk about a different national >> Let's talk about a different national security threat.

security threat. security threat. The fears people have about artificial The fears people have about artificial The fears people have about artificial intelligence. This is a new technology. intelligence. This is a new technology. intelligence. This is a new technology. Nobody understands where it's going. Do Nobody understands where it's going. Do Nobody understands where it's going. Do you think Congress is equipped to do you think Congress is equipped to do you think Congress is equipped to do something reasonable on AI? something reasonable on AI? something reasonable on AI? >> No. I mean uh ultimately we need to act >> No. I mean uh ultimately we need to act >> No. I mean uh ultimately we need to act but what we need to do is I think create but what we need to do is I think create but what we need to do is I think create a uh almost a project warp speed uh that a uh almost a project warp speed uh that a uh almost a project warp speed uh that we did to develop a vaccine. We need a we did to develop a vaccine. We need a we did to develop a vaccine. We need a lot of smart people in the room. Give lot of smart people in the room. Give lot of smart people in the room. Give Trump credit for that. We need a lot of Trump credit for that. We need a lot of Trump credit for that. We need a lot of people in the room from industry. Keep people in the room from industry. Keep people in the room from industry. Keep in mind Ross this is industry saying we in mind Ross this is industry saying we in mind Ross this is industry saying we need to be regulated. You know, if need to be regulated. You know, if need to be regulated. You know, if you're the CEO of a company and you're you're the CEO of a company and you're you're the CEO of a company and you're asking uh to have a regulatory burden, asking uh to have a regulatory burden, asking uh to have a regulatory burden, that almost never happens. And and that almost never happens. And and that almost never happens. And and you're doing it because you also think you're doing it because you also think you're doing it because you also think it's in the best interest of your it's in the best interest of your it's in the best interest of your company and your investors. Let's figure company and your investors. Let's figure company and your investors. Let's figure out at an at a level that all out at an at a level that all out at an at a level that all congressional members can understand congressional members can understand congressional members can understand what we should or should not do. I just what we should or should not do. I just what we should or should not do. I just think we need them all in the room say think we need them all in the room say think we need them all in the room say to what extent can you self-govern and to what extent can you self-govern and to what extent can you self-govern and can we create a standard that says if can we create a standard that says if can we create a standard that says if you can't certify you're doing this, you can't certify you're doing this, you can't certify you're doing this, you're an outlier. and we need to deal you're an outlier. and we need to deal you're an outlier. and we need to deal with you.

with you. with you. >> How much of that do you think can be >> How much of that do you think can be >> How much of that do you think can be handled by internal industry scrutiny handled by internal industry scrutiny handled by internal industry scrutiny versus some kind of government versus some kind of government versus some kind of government regulatory body? regulatory body? regulatory body? >> I think a fair amount, but there's still >> I think a fair amount, but there's still >> I think a fair amount, but there's still going to be some uh gaps that probably going to be some uh gaps that probably going to be some uh gaps that probably require congressional oversight. Um, but require congressional oversight. Um, but require congressional oversight. Um, but I think we need to be uh we need to be I think we need to be uh we need to be I think we need to be uh we need to be very careful. The malign actors aren't very careful. The malign actors aren't very careful. The malign actors aren't going to stop. China's not going to going to stop. China's not going to going to stop. China's not going to adhere to any industry standards for adhere to any industry standards for adhere to any industry standards for child safety. Quite the opposite. I child safety. Quite the opposite. I child safety. Quite the opposite. I think I think you're I think you're an think I think you're I think you're an think I think you're I think you're an early adopter. I mean, as senators go. early adopter. I mean, as senators go. early adopter. I mean, as senators go. >> Oh, I was I've uh I I gained access to >> Oh, I was I've uh I I gained access to >> Oh, I was I've uh I I gained access to Open AI within 48 hours of being Open AI within 48 hours of being Open AI within 48 hours of being available in the developer program. They available in the developer program. They available in the developer program. They didn't know who I was. And I wasn't a didn't know who I was. And I wasn't a didn't know who I was. And I wasn't a developer. I was trying to use the tools developer. I was trying to use the tools developer. I was trying to use the tools that existed at the time. And so, yeah, that existed at the time. And so, yeah, that existed at the time. And so, yeah, I've invested in it for as long as it's I've invested in it for as long as it's I've invested in it for as long as it's been available to the general public. I been available to the general public. I been available to the general public. I use three different LLMs on any given use three different LLMs on any given use three different LLMs on any given day today. Um, so but I consider myself day today. Um, so but I consider myself day today. Um, so but I consider myself still a neoight in terms of the still a neoight in terms of the still a neoight in terms of the technology, it capabilities as do some technology, it capabilities as do some technology, it capabilities as do some of the founders because they're going, of the founders because they're going, of the founders because they're going, "Holy cow, this thing can do that." They "Holy cow, this thing can do that." They "Holy cow, this thing can do that." They created it. I think we can get this created it. I think we can get this created it. I think we can get this under control. I've seen this movie under control. I've seen this movie under control. I've seen this movie before. We just need coolheads in the before. We just need coolheads in the before. We just need coolheads in the room.

room. room. >> A lot of people have seen this movie. >> A lot of people have seen this movie. >> A lot of people have seen this movie. Uh, I'm told that you keep a potential Uh, I'm told that you keep a potential Uh, I'm told that you keep a potential killer robot on your property to mow killer robot on your property to mow killer robot on your property to mow your to mow your grass. your to mow your grass. your to mow your grass. >> I I I I don't appreciate the >> I I I I don't appreciate the >> I I I I don't appreciate the characterization. I think he's a kind of characterization. I think he's a kind of characterization. I think he's a kind of an electronic member of the family and an electronic member of the family and an electronic member of the family and he's doing a great job on the pasture. he's doing a great job on the pasture. he's doing a great job on the pasture. >> Let's talk about some of the things that >> Let's talk about some of the things that >> Let's talk about some of the things that you've watched in the last couple years you've watched in the last couple years you've watched in the last couple years of the second Trump administration that of the second Trump administration that of the second Trump administration that have made you say in your own words, have made you say in your own words, have made you say in your own words, "WTF?" "WTF?" "WTF?" Uh we were filming with you yesterday Uh we were filming with you yesterday Uh we were filming with you yesterday when a reporter asked you about a story when a reporter asked you about a story when a reporter asked you about a story that Donald Trump Jr., not an that Donald Trump Jr., not an that Donald Trump Jr., not an administration official, but you know, a administration official, but you know, a administration official, but you know, a member of the family, allowed a Russian member of the family, allowed a Russian member of the family, allowed a Russian oligarch to pay for part of his wedding oligarch to pay for part of his wedding oligarch to pay for part of his wedding celebration. celebration. celebration. Did that surprise you? Did that surprise you? Did that surprise you? >> No, I was disgusted by it. I mean, come >> No, I was disgusted by it. I mean, come >> No, I was disgusted by it. I mean, come on. The dude is worth somewhere between on. The dude is worth somewhere between on. The dude is worth somewhere between 300 and $400 million. Maybe he has a 300 and $400 million. Maybe he has a 300 and $400 million. Maybe he has a liquidity problem, but why on earth you liquidity problem, but why on earth you liquidity problem, but why on earth you thought it was a good idea um to receive thought it was a good idea um to receive thought it was a good idea um to receive money to pay for a wedding uh that he money to pay for a wedding uh that he money to pay for a wedding uh that he could have easily paid for or maybe skip could have easily paid for or maybe skip could have easily paid for or maybe skip the frills that that were funded by this the frills that that were funded by this the frills that that were funded by this oligarch. I mean, yeah, I grew up in a oligarch. I mean, yeah, I grew up in a oligarch. I mean, yeah, I grew up in a uh in an environment where you stayed uh in an environment where you stayed uh in an environment where you stayed away. You knew where the line was and away. You knew where the line was and away. You knew where the line was and you took a step back and you never you took a step back and you never you took a step back and you never navigated to gray. Uh this is a gray navigated to gray. Uh this is a gray navigated to gray. Uh this is a gray area that I find very disturbing and in area that I find very disturbing and in area that I find very disturbing and in some respects almost Marie Antoanet like some respects almost Marie Antoanet like some respects almost Marie Antoanet like in terms of u the the view that somebody in terms of u the the view that somebody in terms of u the the view that somebody would have who's struggling really you would have who's struggling really you would have who's struggling really you got a Russian oligarch funding a wedding

got a Russian oligarch funding a wedding got a Russian oligarch funding a wedding at some uh remote island wherever it at some uh remote island wherever it at some uh remote island wherever it was. was. was. >> What do you think the oligarch got out >> What do you think the oligarch got out >> What do you think the oligarch got out of it? of it? of it? >> Uh I don't know. >> Uh I don't know. >> Uh I don't know. >> And we've seen a lot of this in this >> And we've seen a lot of this in this >> And we've seen a lot of this in this administration. Obviously, there are administration. Obviously, there are administration. Obviously, there are versions before and Hunter Biden got a versions before and Hunter Biden got a versions before and Hunter Biden got a lot of attention in the last lot of attention in the last lot of attention in the last administration, but here you've got administration, but here you've got administration, but here you've got cases like Don Jr. and the Trump family. cases like Don Jr. and the Trump family. cases like Don Jr. and the Trump family. You've got people connected, the family You've got people connected, the family You've got people connected, the family of Commerce Secretary Lutnik, not your of Commerce Secretary Lutnik, not your of Commerce Secretary Lutnik, not your favorite person in the world who seem to favorite person in the world who seem to favorite person in the world who seem to be doing very well in this be doing very well in this be doing very well in this administration. administration. administration. >> How bad is the corruption? >> How bad is the corruption? >> How bad is the corruption? >> I can't speak to corruption. I'm not an >> I can't speak to corruption. I'm not an >> I can't speak to corruption. I'm not an attorney and I don't have the facts attorney and I don't have the facts attorney and I don't have the facts before me, but I can tell you the before me, but I can tell you the before me, but I can tell you the appearances are disturbing and and this appearances are disturbing and and this appearances are disturbing and and this one is probably the one that objectively one is probably the one that objectively one is probably the one that objectively is the most disturbing because is the most disturbing because is the most disturbing because everybody's admitted that it occurred, everybody's admitted that it occurred, everybody's admitted that it occurred, right? Uh and now they're trying to right? Uh and now they're trying to right? Uh and now they're trying to justify it. I'd be writing a check back justify it. I'd be writing a check back justify it. I'd be writing a check back to that oligarch and apologizing for to that oligarch and apologizing for to that oligarch and apologizing for whoever allowed that to happen. And it whoever allowed that to happen. And it whoever allowed that to happen. And it may very well be, I don't know, it may may very well be, I don't know, it may may very well be, I don't know, it may very well be that Donald Trump Jr. was very well be that Donald Trump Jr. was very well be that Donald Trump Jr. was focused on a wedding and didn't even focused on a wedding and didn't even focused on a wedding and didn't even know it was accepted. Uh, but if he know it was accepted. Uh, but if he know it was accepted. Uh, but if he wasn't aware of it, wasn't aware of it, wasn't aware of it, >> he had bad advisors.

>> he had bad advisors. >> he had bad advisors. >> The first thing he should have done is >> The first thing he should have done is >> The first thing he should have done is say thank you, no thank you. I mean, how say thank you, no thank you. I mean, how say thank you, no thank you. I mean, how much money could it have been? Why did much money could it have been? Why did much money could it have been? Why did they do that? It's an unforced error. they do that? It's an unforced error. they do that? It's an unforced error. You You You >> got to some moments that you call your >> got to some moments that you call your >> got to some moments that you call your breaking points with the administration. breaking points with the administration. breaking points with the administration. And one of them was the Department of And one of them was the Department of And one of them was the Department of Justice, the moment when the Department Justice, the moment when the Department Justice, the moment when the Department of Justice seemed to be opening an of Justice seemed to be opening an of Justice seemed to be opening an investigation of the chairman of the investigation of the chairman of the investigation of the chairman of the Federal Reserve for improper spending on Federal Reserve for improper spending on Federal Reserve for improper spending on renovations. renovations. renovations. >> Talk about that. >> Talk about that. >> Talk about that. >> Well, I had uh I developed a >> Well, I had uh I developed a >> Well, I had uh I developed a relationship with J. Pal that dates back relationship with J. Pal that dates back relationship with J. Pal that dates back years uh since I've been on the banking years uh since I've been on the banking years uh since I've been on the banking committee. I was becoming really committee. I was becoming really committee. I was becoming really concerned with them trying to politicize concerned with them trying to politicize concerned with them trying to politicize the Fed and u and threaten its the Fed and u and threaten its the Fed and u and threaten its independence. So, and I was aware of independence. So, and I was aware of independence. So, and I was aware of this investigation that was going on. this investigation that was going on. this investigation that was going on. And so, I told my staff, let's be ready And so, I told my staff, let's be ready And so, I told my staff, let's be ready within minutes of this becoming public within minutes of this becoming public within minutes of this becoming public to make it very clear where I'm going to to make it very clear where I'm going to to make it very clear where I'm going to be on Powell and his nomination uh and be on Powell and his nomination uh and be on Powell and his nomination uh and not allowing anybody to replace him. I not allowing anybody to replace him. I not allowing anybody to replace him. I really believed if the market thought really believed if the market thought really believed if the market thought that the Fed was going to be controlled that the Fed was going to be controlled that the Fed was going to be controlled by President Trump, uh, that it was by President Trump, uh, that it was by President Trump, uh, that it was going to have dire consequences in the going to have dire consequences in the going to have dire consequences in the market. Most people I've spoken with market. Most people I've spoken with market. Most people I've spoken with agree with that. So, we just moved agree with that. So, we just moved agree with that. So, we just moved quickly to try and tie that off and, uh, quickly to try and tie that off and, uh, quickly to try and tie that off and, uh, and then you see what happened. We and then you see what happened. We and then you see what happened. We finally got to a point where WH is finally got to a point where WH is finally got to a point where WH is confirmed and the investigation has been confirmed and the investigation has been confirmed and the investigation has been withdrawn.

withdrawn. withdrawn. >> So, do you think that's a case study in >> So, do you think that's a case study in >> So, do you think that's a case study in how the Senate can use leverage how the Senate can use leverage how the Senate can use leverage successfully? successfully? successfully? >> It's 100%. And, you know, again, I hate >> It's 100%. And, you know, again, I hate >> It's 100%. And, you know, again, I hate it. I was already working behind the it. I was already working behind the it. I was already working behind the scenes to get it done. I hate it when scenes to get it done. I hate it when scenes to get it done. I hate it when stuff gets the attention of the press. stuff gets the attention of the press. stuff gets the attention of the press. Some of the most fun I've had here are Some of the most fun I've had here are Some of the most fun I've had here are the things that we've gotten done and the things that we've gotten done and the things that we've gotten done and y'all never known about. And I was y'all never known about. And I was y'all never known about. And I was hoping that's what we were going to do hoping that's what we were going to do hoping that's what we were going to do with Powell. But then somebody puro and with Powell. But then somebody puro and with Powell. But then somebody puro and people in little DOJ uh over in the DC people in little DOJ uh over in the DC people in little DOJ uh over in the DC decided to get too cute by half and it decided to get too cute by half and it decided to get too cute by half and it required me to to come out and be public required me to to come out and be public required me to to come out and be public about something that I'd been private about something that I'd been private about something that I'd been private about for months. Another breaking point about for months. Another breaking point about for months. Another breaking point was the plan or the proposal to pay out was the plan or the proposal to pay out was the plan or the proposal to pay out 1.776 1.776 1.776 billion dollars in taxpayer money to billion dollars in taxpayer money to billion dollars in taxpayer money to people who were in the president's view people who were in the president's view people who were in the president's view persecuted for their political beliefs persecuted for their political beliefs persecuted for their political beliefs or loyalty in the Biden administration. or loyalty in the Biden administration. or loyalty in the Biden administration. What was your objection to that fund? What was your objection to that fund? What was your objection to that fund? >> I came out when I first saw it said it >> I came out when I first saw it said it >> I came out when I first saw it said it was stupid on stilts. The fund itself, I was stupid on stilts. The fund itself, I was stupid on stilts. The fund itself, I said, was a payout pot for punks because said, was a payout pot for punks because said, was a payout pot for punks because it was going to allow somebody who it was going to allow somebody who it was going to allow somebody who admitted to destroying the capital going admitted to destroying the capital going admitted to destroying the capital going into it, causing harm to a Capitol into it, causing harm to a Capitol into it, causing harm to a Capitol police officer to possibly seek police officer to possibly seek police officer to possibly seek restitution after they admitted their restitution after they admitted their restitution after they admitted their guilt. I mean, and then the uh the get guilt. I mean, and then the uh the get guilt. I mean, and then the uh the get out of jail free card for the out of jail free card for the out of jail free card for the administration, it was just the administration, it was just the administration, it was just the appearances were horrible. It made no appearances were horrible. It made no appearances were horrible. It made no sense. and and somebody got cute by sense. and and somebody got cute by sense. and and somebody got cute by having 1.776 having 1.776 having 1.776 thinking it was somehow patriotic. There

thinking it was somehow patriotic. There thinking it was somehow patriotic. There was not a single shred of patriotism was not a single shred of patriotism was not a single shred of patriotism demonstrated by the people who breached demonstrated by the people who breached demonstrated by the people who breached the capital. the capital. the capital. >> You ended up negotiating with then >> You ended up negotiating with then >> You ended up negotiating with then acting attorney general Todd Blanch over acting attorney general Todd Blanch over acting attorney general Todd Blanch over this. What was the agreement you came to this. What was the agreement you came to this. What was the agreement you came to on the fund the 1776 on the fund the 1776 on the fund the 1776 >> to torch them and to to basically you >> to torch them and to to basically you >> to torch them and to to basically you know create render it completely use know create render it completely use know create render it completely use useless not able you know like those useless not able you know like those useless not able you know like those zombies in the walking dead you thought zombies in the walking dead you thought zombies in the walking dead you thought you killed them and all of a sudden they you killed them and all of a sudden they you killed them and all of a sudden they pop out of the closet. I didn't ever pop out of the closet. I didn't ever pop out of the closet. I didn't ever want to see it again and he's satisfied want to see it again and he's satisfied want to see it again and he's satisfied in my mind that that would go away and in my mind that that would go away and in my mind that that would go away and uh uh uh >> and are you confident that once you're >> and are you confident that once you're >> and are you confident that once you're not in the Senate it will stay dead or not in the Senate it will stay dead or not in the Senate it will stay dead or will it reanimate and shamble out of the will it reanimate and shamble out of the will it reanimate and shamble out of the woods? woods? woods? >> Don't see it. I don't see any scenario >> Don't see it. I don't see any scenario >> Don't see it. I don't see any scenario where it happens again. where it happens again. where it happens again. >> Okay. So, you're putting a lot of but >> Okay. So, you're putting a lot of but >> Okay. So, you're putting a lot of but you're putting a lot of confidence then you're putting a lot of confidence then you're putting a lot of confidence then in him. in him. in him. >> No, I mean there are structural reasons >> No, I mean there are structural reasons >> No, I mean there are structural reasons why even if he wanted to and I don't why even if he wanted to and I don't why even if he wanted to and I don't think he would. He knows how damaging it think he would. He knows how damaging it think he would. He knows how damaging it would be to the president. U would be to the president. U would be to the president. U mechanically it's not going to happen. I mechanically it's not going to happen. I mechanically it's not going to happen. I don't care what the Democrats say it's don't care what the Democrats say it's don't care what the Democrats say it's [clears throat] dead. We stuck a fork in [clears throat] dead. We stuck a fork in [clears throat] dead. We stuck a fork in it, which is exactly what I told him we it, which is exactly what I told him we it, which is exactly what I told him we had to do to get my vote. One other had to do to get my vote. One other had to do to get my vote. One other breaking point. No, the last breaking breaking point. No, the last breaking breaking point. No, the last breaking point maybe for you was the big point maybe for you was the big point maybe for you was the big beautiful bill and you called it the big beautiful bill and you called it the big beautiful bill and you called it the big beautiful blunder.

beautiful blunder. beautiful blunder. >> What was wrong with it? Um, it was >> What was wrong with it? Um, it was >> What was wrong with it? Um, it was another example where somebody in the another example where somebody in the another example where somebody in the White House or in the administration in White House or in the administration in White House or in the administration in this case, I think it was over in CMS or this case, I think it was over in CMS or this case, I think it was over in CMS or DHS, air dropped language that was going DHS, air dropped language that was going DHS, air dropped language that was going to cut direct payments to healthc care to cut direct payments to healthc care to cut direct payments to healthc care providers that exceeded at least in the providers that exceeded at least in the providers that exceeded at least in the state of North Carolina what the state of North Carolina what the state of North Carolina what the Medicaid cuts were. I said I was fine Medicaid cuts were. I said I was fine Medicaid cuts were. I said I was fine with the Medicaid cuts. As a matter of with the Medicaid cuts. As a matter of with the Medicaid cuts. As a matter of fact, I thought they were necessary, but fact, I thought they were necessary, but fact, I thought they were necessary, but North Carolina was already ready for a North Carolina was already ready for a North Carolina was already ready for a cut because of the House proposed cut because of the House proposed cut because of the House proposed measures, and I was okay with that. But measures, and I was okay with that. But measures, and I was okay with that. But then when it came to the Senate, then when it came to the Senate, then when it came to the Senate, somebody got too cute by half and said, somebody got too cute by half and said, somebody got too cute by half and said, "Let's add this," which almost doubled "Let's add this," which almost doubled "Let's add this," which almost doubled the overall cuts to states like North the overall cuts to states like North the overall cuts to states like North Carolina. It's not sustainable. Tried to Carolina. It's not sustainable. Tried to Carolina. It's not sustainable. Tried to work with legislative leaders, tried to work with legislative leaders, tried to work with legislative leaders, tried to work with congressional members, say, work with congressional members, say, work with congressional members, say, "Guys, I want to get to where the "Guys, I want to get to where the "Guys, I want to get to where the president wants to get or the president wants to get or the president wants to get or the administration, but this is not the way administration, but this is not the way administration, but this is not the way to do it. This is too much change too to do it. This is too much change too to do it. This is too much change too soon. It's going to be disruptive and soon. It's going to be disruptive and soon. It's going to be disruptive and the ads are going to write themselves. the ads are going to write themselves. the ads are going to write themselves. >> How do you know when a cut is too steep? >> How do you know when a cut is too steep? >> How do you know when a cut is too steep? How do you assess that?

How do you assess that? How do you assess that? >> The same way I did in business. I mean, >> The same way I did in business. I mean, >> The same way I did in business. I mean, you got to program it out and say, "How you got to program it out and say, "How you got to program it out and say, "How do I do this? What are we going to do?" do I do this? What are we going to do?" do I do this? What are we going to do?" Home health is a classic example. The Home health is a classic example. The Home health is a classic example. The [snorts] states are going to go to some [snorts] states are going to go to some [snorts] states are going to go to some of the more costly programs first to try of the more costly programs first to try of the more costly programs first to try and get their their budgets in balance. and get their their budgets in balance. and get their their budgets in balance. There's going to be a lot of unintended There's going to be a lot of unintended There's going to be a lot of unintended consequences. These things resonate with consequences. These things resonate with consequences. These things resonate with the American people. Those sorts of ads the American people. Those sorts of ads the American people. Those sorts of ads and those sorts of cuts are like, you and those sorts of cuts are like, you and those sorts of cuts are like, you know, that could be me. I wish I could know, that could be me. I wish I could know, that could be me. I wish I could have voted for the bill. Couldn't vote have voted for the bill. Couldn't vote have voted for the bill. Couldn't vote for it when I knew it was going to have for it when I knew it was going to have for it when I knew it was going to have an impact on North Carolina. Also knew an impact on North Carolina. Also knew an impact on North Carolina. Also knew it was going to have an impact on the it was going to have an impact on the it was going to have an impact on the politics this year. Both are true. politics this year. Both are true. politics this year. Both are true. >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on Trump's adviserss, he also acknowledges Trump's adviserss, he also acknowledges Trump's adviserss, he also acknowledges what he calls Trump's WTF moments, what he calls Trump's WTF moments, what he calls Trump's WTF moments, threatening to seize Greenland, casting threatening to seize Greenland, casting threatening to seize Greenland, casting himself as Jesus or Easter musings about himself as Jesus or Easter musings about himself as Jesus or Easter musings about annihilating Iran. I think he said, annihilating Iran. I think he said, annihilating Iran. I think he said, "Open the straight." "Open the straight." "Open the straight." >> Were you worried that we were going to >> Were you worried that we were going to >> Were you worried that we were going to start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? >> No. And I've told the president this >> No. And I've told the president this >> No. And I've told the president this before. I think you really need to before. I think you really need to before. I think you really need to understand the weight of your words and understand the weight of your words and understand the weight of your words and how literally people take you.

how literally people take you. how literally people take you. >> But how do you tell the difference >> But how do you tell the difference >> But how do you tell the difference between what people are supposed to take between what people are supposed to take between what people are supposed to take literally and what they aren't? literally and what they aren't? literally and what they aren't? >> You know, I' I'd like to think that most >> You know, I' I'd like to think that most >> You know, I' I'd like to think that most of the time the president would be of the time the president would be of the time the president would be surrounded with people who would finally surrounded with people who would finally surrounded with people who would finally say, "Mr. president, if you do that, I'm say, "Mr. president, if you do that, I'm say, "Mr. president, if you do that, I'm walking out this door. walking out this door. walking out this door. >> There's a Russian expression, if only >> There's a Russian expression, if only >> There's a Russian expression, if only thesar knew, which means people don't thesar knew, which means people don't thesar knew, which means people don't want to blame thesar when bad things want to blame thesar when bad things want to blame thesar when bad things happen. They want to blame his happen. They want to blame his happen. They want to blame his adviserss. But in this case with Trump, adviserss. But in this case with Trump, adviserss. But in this case with Trump, it's on him, right? In the end, whoever it's on him, right? In the end, whoever it's on him, right? In the end, whoever he has around him, he's the zar. he has around him, he's the zar. he has around him, he's the zar. >> Truman famously said that the buck stops >> Truman famously said that the buck stops >> Truman famously said that the buck stops here. Get that. here. Get that. here. Get that. >> That's a good line. >> That's a good line. >> That's a good line. >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great adviserss. Um, and I believe that the adviserss. Um, and I believe that the adviserss. Um, and I believe that the president should rightfully look at some president should rightfully look at some president should rightfully look at some of the people that said, "Oh, you look of the people that said, "Oh, you look of the people that said, "Oh, you look so good. Oh, that speech was so great. so good. Oh, that speech was so great. so good. Oh, that speech was so great. Oh, Mr. President, that's a great idea." Oh, Mr. President, that's a great idea." Oh, Mr. President, that's a great idea." And then go behind and say, "That's a And then go behind and say, "That's a And then go behind and say, "That's a bad idea." Those people need to be held bad idea." Those people need to be held bad idea." Those people need to be held accountable. And uh, and I think that accountable. And uh, and I think that accountable. And uh, and I think that they will be in the in the pages of they will be in the in the pages of they will be in the in the pages of history and probably in in future history and probably in in future history and probably in in future elections. This falty to a would-be king elections. This falty to a would-be king elections. This falty to a would-be king or a powerful president is not a good or a powerful president is not a good or a powerful president is not a good look in an election cycle where people look in an election cycle where people look in an election cycle where people are frustrated. Why anybody hesitates to are frustrated. Why anybody hesitates to are frustrated. Why anybody hesitates to say, "Look, I love the president. I say, "Look, I love the president. I say, "Look, I love the president. I voted for the big beautiful bill. I'm voted for the big beautiful bill. I'm voted for the big beautiful bill. I'm okay with the CMS cuts, but we got to okay with the CMS cuts, but we got to okay with the CMS cuts, but we got to get this thing in Iran, right?" What's get this thing in Iran, right?" What's get this thing in Iran, right?" What's wrong with that? If they're thinking it, wrong with that? If they're thinking it, wrong with that? If they're thinking it, why don't they say it? And the ones who why don't they say it? And the ones who why don't they say it? And the ones who do, I think, will be rewarded at the do, I think, will be rewarded at the do, I think, will be rewarded at the ballot box. And the ones who don't will ballot box. And the ones who don't will ballot box. And the ones who don't will probably have a lot more time with their probably have a lot more time with their probably have a lot more time with their family next year.

family next year. family next year. >> So, you think the Republican party is >> So, you think the Republican party is >> So, you think the Republican party is going to have a rough midterm? going to have a rough midterm? going to have a rough midterm? Yeah, we were going to historically. I Yeah, we were going to historically. I Yeah, we were going to historically. I think we're going to have more and we think we're going to have more and we think we're going to have more and we can we can remove some of this just by can we can remove some of this just by can we can remove some of this just by being straight with the American people. being straight with the American people. being straight with the American people. Look, I the American electorate is very Look, I the American electorate is very Look, I the American electorate is very forgiving. Um, if you if if you forgiving. Um, if you if if you forgiving. Um, if you if if you apologize for a misstep, explain what apologize for a misstep, explain what apologize for a misstep, explain what you're going to do differently, you get you're going to do differently, you get you're going to do differently, you get votes back. But if you double down on votes back. But if you double down on votes back. But if you double down on something that's clearly not resonating something that's clearly not resonating something that's clearly not resonating with the voters, then you're going to with the voters, then you're going to with the voters, then you're going to get what you get. Do you think there's get what you get. Do you think there's get what you get. Do you think there's any way the Republicans hold your seat any way the Republicans hold your seat any way the Republicans hold your seat in North Carolina? in North Carolina? in North Carolina? >> Uh well, the the numbers are against it, >> Uh well, the the numbers are against it, >> Uh well, the the numbers are against it, but I I tell you, it's uh the next but I I tell you, it's uh the next but I I tell you, it's uh the next couple of weeks uh will be a make or couple of weeks uh will be a make or couple of weeks uh will be a make or break. Uh I think in states like North break. Uh I think in states like North break. Uh I think in states like North Carolina Carolina Carolina >> after a tough 2026, >> after a tough 2026, >> after a tough 2026, >> it'll be 2028. It'll be a presidential >> it'll be 2028. It'll be a presidential >> it'll be 2028. It'll be a presidential cycle. What does the battle over the cycle. What does the battle over the cycle. What does the battle over the future of your party look like then? future of your party look like then? future of your party look like then? um you know, we're going to have this um you know, we're going to have this um you know, we're going to have this situation where the president's going to situation where the president's going to situation where the president's going to have a heavy influence on the primary. have a heavy influence on the primary. have a heavy influence on the primary. And boy, this is when we really have to And boy, this is when we really have to And boy, this is when we really have to speak frankly about what kind of profile speak frankly about what kind of profile speak frankly about what kind of profile we need to win a national election in we need to win a national election in we need to win a national election in 2028. Um and it probably isn't what the 2028. Um and it probably isn't what the 2028. Um and it probably isn't what the president is thinking right now as a president is thinking right now as a president is thinking right now as a go-to pick. So, we're going to have to go-to pick. So, we're going to have to go-to pick. So, we're going to have to have a serious discussion with that. the have a serious discussion with that. the have a serious discussion with that. the end the RNC other Republican end the RNC other Republican end the RNC other Republican organizations need to come down and take organizations need to come down and take organizations need to come down and take the president's advice um but look more the president's advice um but look more the president's advice um but look more towards the Republican party priorities towards the Republican party priorities towards the Republican party priorities and things that go beyond uh 2028.

and things that go beyond uh 2028. and things that go beyond uh 2028. What's what would be wrong with the What's what would be wrong with the What's what would be wrong with the president's go-to pick? president's go-to pick? president's go-to pick? >> Um because I think it's one that works >> Um because I think it's one that works >> Um because I think it's one that works well and red mega states won't work well well and red mega states won't work well well and red mega states won't work well for a general election. The nation for a general election. The nation for a general election. The nation >> are we are we talking about the vice >> are we are we talking about the vice >> are we are we talking about the vice president or are we talking president or are we talking president or are we talking hypothetically? hypothetically? hypothetically? >> Uh well I don't know. I assume right now >> Uh well I don't know. I assume right now >> Uh well I don't know. I assume right now you had you know at I guess the Texas you had you know at I guess the Texas you had you know at I guess the Texas uh Trump of Palooa whatever it was uh Trump of Palooa whatever it was uh Trump of Palooa whatever it was called that he was kind of introduced called that he was kind of introduced called that he was kind of introduced and I think endorsed by uh Turning and I think endorsed by uh Turning and I think endorsed by uh Turning Point. Uh so it looks like things would Point. Uh so it looks like things would Point. Uh so it looks like things would lead that way. That's not necessarily a lead that way. That's not necessarily a lead that way. That's not necessarily a lock in terms of the president's lock in terms of the president's lock in terms of the president's endorsement, but I don't think the endorsement, but I don't think the endorsement, but I don't think the president should handpick the president president should handpick the president president should handpick the president is by definition going to be in is by definition going to be in is by definition going to be in retirement when the next person is sworn retirement when the next person is sworn retirement when the next person is sworn into office. Um, the president should into office. Um, the president should into office. Um, the president should have a say, but this is not a this is have a say, but this is not a this is have a say, but this is not a this is not a decision that should be solely not a decision that should be solely not a decision that should be solely his. And my god, I I'll tell you, if we his. And my god, I I'll tell you, if we his. And my god, I I'll tell you, if we have people looking at a nomination that have people looking at a nomination that have people looking at a nomination that he wants that we all know isn't the he wants that we all know isn't the he wants that we all know isn't the right one, um, then we better step up right one, um, then we better step up right one, um, then we better step up and defend this party. I'm not going to and defend this party. I'm not going to and defend this party. I'm not going to run for elected politics again, but I'm run for elected politics again, but I'm run for elected politics again, but I'm going to be involved in that process.

going to be involved in that process. going to be involved in that process. And people making decisions that I think And people making decisions that I think And people making decisions that I think undermines our brand and undermines our undermines our brand and undermines our undermines our brand and undermines our chances for success will be in my chances for success will be in my chances for success will be in my crosshairs any way they can be crosshairs any way they can be crosshairs any way they can be politically. If this election goes the politically. If this election goes the politically. If this election goes the way I think it will, that we will way I think it will, that we will way I think it will, that we will maintain a majority in the Senate, maybe maintain a majority in the Senate, maybe maintain a majority in the Senate, maybe net lose a seat or so, get some of these net lose a seat or so, get some of these net lose a seat or so, get some of these good members back and we lose the House. good members back and we lose the House. good members back and we lose the House. That is a time for reflection and that That is a time for reflection and that That is a time for reflection and that is a time for saying clearly if we lost is a time for saying clearly if we lost is a time for saying clearly if we lost and lost by whatever the numbers happen and lost by whatever the numbers happen and lost by whatever the numbers happen to be, we've learned from that. These to be, we've learned from that. These to be, we've learned from that. These are the mistakes we've made. This is are the mistakes we've made. This is are the mistakes we've made. This is what we're going to stop doing. This is what we're going to stop doing. This is what we're going to stop doing. This is what we're going to start doing. We're what we're going to start doing. We're what we're going to start doing. We're going to start engaging Democrats. We're going to start engaging Democrats. We're going to start engaging Democrats. We're going to start pushing aside these going to start pushing aside these going to start pushing aside these partisan voices. We're going to be the partisan voices. We're going to be the partisan voices. We're going to be the adults in the room. Um and this is what adults in the room. Um and this is what adults in the room. Um and this is what we're going to continue to do. We're we're going to continue to do. We're we're going to continue to do. We're going to continue to cut your taxes. going to continue to cut your taxes. going to continue to cut your taxes. We're going to continue to cut your We're going to continue to cut your We're going to continue to cut your regulations. We're going to continue to regulations. We're going to continue to regulations. We're going to continue to do the good work that's been done under do the good work that's been done under do the good work that's been done under this administration. this administration. this administration. >> One thing that happens when a president >> One thing that happens when a president >> One thing that happens when a president is unpopular with the country but still is unpopular with the country but still is unpopular with the country but still popular in his own party popular in his own party popular in his own party >> is that people try to criticize him by >> is that people try to criticize him by >> is that people try to criticize him by criticizing the people around him by criticizing the people around him by criticizing the people around him by saying it's this person's fault, it's saying it's this person's fault, it's saying it's this person's fault, it's that person's fault, it's the adviser's that person's fault, it's the adviser's that person's fault, it's the adviser's fault, it's this group's fault. In the fault, it's this group's fault. In the fault, it's this group's fault. In the end though, the president's bad approval end though, the president's bad approval end though, the president's bad approval ratings, a lot of the things that have ratings, a lot of the things that have ratings, a lot of the things that have gone wrong in his second administration, gone wrong in his second administration, gone wrong in his second administration, they're his fault, right?

they're his fault, right? they're his fault, right? >> Look, you can't fire the president. >> Look, you can't fire the president. >> Look, you can't fire the president. That's not an option. The president is That's not an option. The president is That's not an option. The president is going to be the president until the end going to be the president until the end going to be the president until the end of 2028. The only thing that you can of 2028. The only thing that you can of 2028. The only thing that you can change, the only people you can fire are change, the only people you can fire are change, the only people you can fire are the people around him. the people around him. the people around him. Tillis often talks as if the Tillis often talks as if the Tillis often talks as if the administration just needs a dose of administration just needs a dose of administration just needs a dose of managerial efficiency. managerial efficiency. managerial efficiency. >> I'm just going to hit play and let you >> I'm just going to hit play and let you >> I'm just going to hit play and let you watch. watch. watch. >> And maybe a little less flattery in >> And maybe a little less flattery in >> And maybe a little less flattery in cabinet meetings. cabinet meetings. cabinet meetings. >> You are fixing everything with your >> You are fixing everything with your >> You are fixing everything with your policies. You have changed America and policies. You have changed America and policies. You have changed America and created the golden age. created the golden age. created the golden age. >> Oh, wait a minute. I don't have enough >> Oh, wait a minute. I don't have enough >> Oh, wait a minute. I don't have enough drama to go forward. [laughter] drama to go forward. [laughter] drama to go forward. [laughter] >> So, you've been in a lot of corporate >> So, you've been in a lot of corporate >> So, you've been in a lot of corporate board meetings. board meetings. board meetings. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do they ever sound like that? >> Do they ever sound like that? >> Do they ever sound like that? >> No. The American people want honesty. I >> No. The American people want honesty. I >> No. The American people want honesty. I don't want sickopants around the don't want sickopants around the don't want sickopants around the president because it ultimately harms president because it ultimately harms president because it ultimately harms him. It may very well be that this is him. It may very well be that this is him. It may very well be that this is what the president needs to feel good what the president needs to feel good what the president needs to feel good about himself. But if that's true, the about himself. But if that's true, the about himself. But if that's true, the president needs to seek help and find president needs to seek help and find president needs to seek help and find confidence. This he's a successful man. confidence. This he's a successful man. confidence. This he's a successful man. He should feel comfortable in his own He should feel comfortable in his own He should feel comfortable in his own skin. I don't need people gushing over skin. I don't need people gushing over skin. I don't need people gushing over me to feel comfortable in my own skin.

me to feel comfortable in my own skin. me to feel comfortable in my own skin. And I expect the president of the United And I expect the president of the United And I expect the president of the United States to have that swagger going into a States to have that swagger going into a States to have that swagger going into a room and get right to business. The room and get right to business. The room and get right to business. The American people want business. They American people want business. They American people want business. They don't want cheerleaders. They want don't want cheerleaders. They want don't want cheerleaders. They want people on the field doing the work. people on the field doing the work. people on the field doing the work. >> This is the work right here. >> This is the work right here. >> This is the work right here. >> We spoke with Tillis about the events of >> We spoke with Tillis about the events of >> We spoke with Tillis about the events of January 6, 2021. He told us he was so January 6, 2021. He told us he was so January 6, 2021. He told us he was so angry about what was happening that day angry about what was happening that day angry about what was happening that day that he considered staying back in the that he considered staying back in the that he considered staying back in the Senate chamber. Senate chamber. Senate chamber. >> On January 6, 2021, is it true you were >> On January 6, 2021, is it true you were >> On January 6, 2021, is it true you were the last senator out of the chamber? the last senator out of the chamber? the last senator out of the chamber? >> I was in the back of the chamber and one >> I was in the back of the chamber and one >> I was in the back of the chamber and one of the vice presidents, presidential of the vice presidents, presidential of the vice presidents, presidential detail, came back and said, "Sir, we detail, came back and said, "Sir, we detail, came back and said, "Sir, we really got to go." And uh we left. But really got to go." And uh we left. But really got to go." And uh we left. But part of the reason I was there was I was part of the reason I was there was I was part of the reason I was there was I was angry. Quite honestly, I wanted to greet angry. Quite honestly, I wanted to greet angry. Quite honestly, I wanted to greet him and not in a in a hospitable way. him and not in a in a hospitable way. him and not in a in a hospitable way. >> Were you expecting serious trouble? >> Were you expecting serious trouble? >> Were you expecting serious trouble? >> Not at that level. I mean, we heard the >> Not at that level. I mean, we heard the >> Not at that level. I mean, we heard the noise, but at the time we thought it was noise, but at the time we thought it was noise, but at the time we thought it was from outside. Um, but then it got louder from outside. Um, but then it got louder from outside. Um, but then it got louder and louder and my my chair was at the at and louder and my my chair was at the at and louder and my my chair was at the at the time center back of the chamber and the time center back of the chamber and the time center back of the chamber and I could hear it more closely. I had no I could hear it more closely. I had no I could hear it more closely. I had no idea they were all over the place at idea they were all over the place at idea they were all over the place at that point. Do you think they were that point. Do you think they were that point. Do you think they were sincere, the protesters, in the sense of sincere, the protesters, in the sense of sincere, the protesters, in the sense of they thought they were patriots saving they thought they were patriots saving they thought they were patriots saving the republic?

the republic? the republic? >> Some, but not many. I think many of them >> Some, but not many. I think many of them >> Some, but not many. I think many of them were just people that are hateful, were just people that are hateful, were just people that are hateful, disrespectful of our democracy. There disrespectful of our democracy. There disrespectful of our democracy. There were there were some in there that were were there were some in there that were were there were some in there that were probably legitimately concerned and probably legitimately concerned and probably legitimately concerned and sincere, but I don't even believe it was sincere, but I don't even believe it was sincere, but I don't even believe it was a majority. I think some of them are a majority. I think some of them are a majority. I think some of them are just grifters that look for a good cause just grifters that look for a good cause just grifters that look for a good cause they can make money off of. Look, this they can make money off of. Look, this they can make money off of. Look, this was the first time in the history of was the first time in the history of was the first time in the history of this country that we had not had a this country that we had not had a this country that we had not had a completely peaceful transfer of power on completely peaceful transfer of power on completely peaceful transfer of power on that day. And that was despicable. The that day. And that was despicable. The that day. And that was despicable. The people that led the charge, the people people that led the charge, the people people that led the charge, the people that assaulted police officers, I wish that assaulted police officers, I wish that assaulted police officers, I wish they were still in prison and serving a they were still in prison and serving a they were still in prison and serving a very long sentence. very long sentence. very long sentence. >> But they were there for the president. >> But they were there for the president. >> But they were there for the president. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. So you have a president who in in in So you have a president who in in in So you have a president who in in in this account has this account has this account has >> effectively encouraged a mob to storm >> effectively encouraged a mob to storm >> effectively encouraged a mob to storm the capital. You had the chance to the capital. You had the chance to the capital. You had the chance to convict him in an impeachment trial and convict him in an impeachment trial and convict him in an impeachment trial and prevent him from being president of the prevent him from being president of the prevent him from being president of the United States again and you decided not United States again and you decided not United States again and you decided not to. Why? to. Why? to. Why? >> Because they cheapened the impeachment >> Because they cheapened the impeachment >> Because they cheapened the impeachment process by not having witnesses and process by not having witnesses and process by not having witnesses and going through the months that have going through the months that have going through the months that have historically gone through when we've historically gone through when we've historically gone through when we've done impeachment. it would transform it done impeachment. it would transform it done impeachment. it would transform it into a vote of no confidence. I thought into a vote of no confidence. I thought into a vote of no confidence. I thought that they were abusing it. The that they were abusing it. The that they were abusing it. The president, every person, even a serial president, every person, even a serial president, every person, even a serial killer, is entitled to due process. The killer, is entitled to due process. The killer, is entitled to due process. The House did not give the president due House did not give the president due House did not give the president due process.

process. process. >> If you had run a trial and spent like >> If you had run a trial and spent like >> If you had run a trial and spent like weeks, months litigating this, weeks, months litigating this, weeks, months litigating this, >> well, first of all, would it have >> well, first of all, would it have >> well, first of all, would it have changed your vote? Would you have voted changed your vote? Would you have voted changed your vote? Would you have voted to convict in a scenario where they'd to convict in a scenario where they'd to convict in a scenario where they'd run the full trial and the facts were run the full trial and the facts were run the full trial and the facts were what they were? what they were? what they were? >> If they'd presented the evidence, I was >> If they'd presented the evidence, I was >> If they'd presented the evidence, I was open to it. open to it. open to it. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I read your book and one of your themes >> I read your book and one of your themes >> I read your book and one of your themes was that senators need leverage. was that senators need leverage. was that senators need leverage. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> This was a moment when you as a >> This was a moment when you as a >> This was a moment when you as a Republican senator and your colleagues, Republican senator and your colleagues, Republican senator and your colleagues, you had all the leverage over him. You you had all the leverage over him. You you had all the leverage over him. You had the power to make sure he wasn't had the power to make sure he wasn't had the power to make sure he wasn't president again. president again. president again. >> What you're doing is a a means justifies >> What you're doing is a a means justifies >> What you're doing is a a means justifies the end rationalization. So cheapening the end rationalization. So cheapening the end rationalization. So cheapening the impeachment process to prevent the impeachment process to prevent the impeachment process to prevent somebody from running in the future, I somebody from running in the future, I somebody from running in the future, I just don't buy it. just don't buy it. just don't buy it. >> Regardless of whether it would have >> Regardless of whether it would have >> Regardless of whether it would have shaped your vote, I think it's clear shaped your vote, I think it's clear shaped your vote, I think it's clear that with the passage of time, the that with the passage of time, the that with the passage of time, the Republican party as a whole became Republican party as a whole became Republican party as a whole became uncomfortable with the whole subject of uncomfortable with the whole subject of uncomfortable with the whole subject of January 6, but just specifically with January 6, but just specifically with January 6, but just specifically with the reality that, you know, people did the reality that, you know, people did the reality that, you know, people did bad things, the Capitol police were bad things, the Capitol police were bad things, the Capitol police were assaulted, these kind of things. What assaulted, these kind of things. What assaulted, these kind of things. What does what do members of Congress what does what do members of Congress what does what do members of Congress what does the country owe the Capitol Police does the country owe the Capitol Police does the country owe the Capitol Police >> based on that day?

>> based on that day? >> based on that day? >> Uh number one, respect. Uh number two, >> Uh number one, respect. Uh number two, >> Uh number one, respect. Uh number two, thanks. Um they got us out of the thanks. Um they got us out of the thanks. Um they got us out of the chamber. We didn't have a scratch. As a chamber. We didn't have a scratch. As a chamber. We didn't have a scratch. As a matter of fact, they got us into a matter of fact, they got us into a matter of fact, they got us into a conference room that uh or committee conference room that uh or committee conference room that uh or committee room that within two hours we were being room that within two hours we were being room that within two hours we were being served a hot meal with two different served a hot meal with two different served a hot meal with two different choices. Thank them for doing that. choices. Thank them for doing that. choices. Thank them for doing that. Thank them for taking uh the heat. And Thank them for taking uh the heat. And Thank them for taking uh the heat. And when we passed through the hallway that when we passed through the hallway that when we passed through the hallway that we came down to get to the cap, I saw we came down to get to the cap, I saw we came down to get to the cap, I saw people red and bleeding, police officers people red and bleeding, police officers people red and bleeding, police officers holding the line and there were people holding the line and there were people holding the line and there were people probably not 75 yards away. Uh we owe probably not 75 yards away. Uh we owe probably not 75 yards away. Uh we owe them a debt of gratitude and they owe us them a debt of gratitude and they owe us them a debt of gratitude and they owe us no apology. no apology. no apology. >> So there was a plan to install a plaque >> So there was a plan to install a plaque >> So there was a plan to install a plaque >> honoring >> honoring >> honoring honoring that sacrifice, those efforts, honoring that sacrifice, those efforts, honoring that sacrifice, those efforts, everything the Capitol Police did. Why everything the Capitol Police did. Why everything the Capitol Police did. Why did it take so long to install it? did it take so long to install it? did it take so long to install it? Um, I have to believe that people were Um, I have to believe that people were Um, I have to believe that people were afraid uh on the House side to follow afraid uh on the House side to follow afraid uh on the House side to follow through on the legislation that had been through on the legislation that had been through on the legislation that had been passed because they thought there'd be passed because they thought there'd be passed because they thought there'd be repercussions from the president, repercussions from the president, repercussions from the president, thanking the Capitol Police for thanking the Capitol Police for thanking the Capitol Police for protecting us and recognizing January 6 protecting us and recognizing January 6 protecting us and recognizing January 6 is one of the most disgraceful days in is one of the most disgraceful days in is one of the most disgraceful days in US history.

US history. US history. >> Where did you install it? It's in the >> Where did you install it? It's in the >> Where did you install it? It's in the hallway that every president who gets hallway that every president who gets hallway that every president who gets inaugurated in the future walks through inaugurated in the future walks through inaugurated in the future walks through before they go out to the uh the West before they go out to the uh the West before they go out to the uh the West front. Uh and I think that that is an front. Uh and I think that that is an front. Uh and I think that that is an absolutely appropriate place for it to absolutely appropriate place for it to absolutely appropriate place for it to be to remind every single one of them to be to remind every single one of them to be to remind every single one of them to never repeat that um that day again. never repeat that um that day again. never repeat that um that day again. >> About to have a midterm election. Do you >> About to have a midterm election. Do you >> About to have a midterm election. Do you have any concerns about how this same have any concerns about how this same have any concerns about how this same president who you've been condemning for president who you've been condemning for president who you've been condemning for January 6 will react if Republicans have January 6 will react if Republicans have January 6 will react if Republicans have a bad night in the midterms? a bad night in the midterms? a bad night in the midterms? >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It would be another political unforced would be another political unforced would be another political unforced error if we do that. error if we do that. error if we do that. >> Tillis showed us the plaque honoring >> Tillis showed us the plaque honoring >> Tillis showed us the plaque honoring those who protected the capital on those who protected the capital on those who protected the capital on January 6th. While watching the sunset January 6th. While watching the sunset January 6th. While watching the sunset over Washington from the capital over Washington from the capital over Washington from the capital terrace, he offered a warning about the terrace, he offered a warning about the terrace, he offered a warning about the rise of the imperial presidency. rise of the imperial presidency. rise of the imperial presidency. >> You talk a lot in your book about the >> You talk a lot in your book about the >> You talk a lot in your book about the risks of authoritarianism. What are you risks of authoritarianism. What are you risks of authoritarianism. What are you worried about? worried about? worried about? >> The executive branch with its outsized >> The executive branch with its outsized >> The executive branch with its outsized influence threatening people in influence threatening people in influence threatening people in primaries basically degrading their primaries basically degrading their primaries basically degrading their independence or eliminating it all independence or eliminating it all independence or eliminating it all together. Then we become a a one together. Then we become a a one together. Then we become a a one institution institution institution country which is exactly what we fought country which is exactly what we fought country which is exactly what we fought a revolutionary war over. I mean, we a revolutionary war over. I mean, we a revolutionary war over. I mean, we will have a sort of dictator king if will have a sort of dictator king if will have a sort of dictator king if we're not careful. And we have to fight we're not careful. And we have to fight we're not careful. And we have to fight uh for this institution. I'm a I don't uh for this institution. I'm a I don't uh for this institution. I'm a I don't work for the president of the United work for the president of the United work for the president of the United States. I work for the American people, States. I work for the American people, States. I work for the American people, the voters of North Carolina, and I'm a the voters of North Carolina, and I'm a the voters of North Carolina, and I'm a steward of this institution. And I think steward of this institution. And I think steward of this institution. And I think our members need to take that job very

our members need to take that job very our members need to take that job very seriously. We're not a sounding board. seriously. We're not a sounding board. seriously. We're not a sounding board. Uh we're not a manufacturing facility. Uh we're not a manufacturing facility. Uh we're not a manufacturing facility. We're a board of directors for this We're a board of directors for this We're a board of directors for this democracy. And we need to assert that at democracy. And we need to assert that at democracy. And we need to assert that at every chance we get. It seems like every chance we get. It seems like every chance we get. It seems like there's a step change where presidents there's a step change where presidents there's a step change where presidents just ignore Congress or don't even try just ignore Congress or don't even try just ignore Congress or don't even try and get things passed. Great. And all and get things passed. Great. And all and get things passed. Great. And all we've seen over the the last four we've seen over the the last four we've seen over the the last four administrations is a constant administrations is a constant administrations is a constant escalation. I want checks and balances. escalation. I want checks and balances. escalation. I want checks and balances. I want all three branches to have their I want all three branches to have their I want all three branches to have their individual role and continue to check individual role and continue to check individual role and continue to check power as they have for 250 years. And I power as they have for 250 years. And I power as they have for 250 years. And I think because we've been such a think because we've been such a think because we've been such a successful democracy for so long, it's successful democracy for so long, it's successful democracy for so long, it's hard for the American people to hard for the American people to hard for the American people to understand how quickly we could lose it understand how quickly we could lose it understand how quickly we could lose it all.