Building a Workplace Where People Flourish (w/Landon Hobson) [Your Corner of the World - Episode 3]

shared experiences [music] of the microwaves of relationships. I can spend six months working next to you, but if I spend six hours [music] serving next to you, I now know your kids' names, I know your spouse's name, I know where you grew up, [music] I knew I know, you know, what your hobbies are, and now I have a shared experience that has pushed our relationship [music] further. >> Well, hello everybody. My name is Dan Andriyani, and I'm with my friend Mark Fruga. We are host and co-host of Your Corner of the World, which is a podcast dedicated to the discussions of the way in which business leaders and ordinary leaders, and to some degree everybody, strives to bring God's light to their corner of the world. Not only God's principles, but also the gospel. Mark, what else do we do? What are we up to here? >> Well, we have amazing guests, insightful conversations, and I I just have learned a lot already in my journey along with you. So, we try and figure out how to intersect faith, work, and God's good grace. So, great to be with you, Dan.

>> Yeah. And our guest today is Landon Hobson, a man I've known, I think, for six or seven years, something along those lines, and I still see you, Landon, joyfully from time to time out and about. Landon, you are the CEO of a family business that makes bottles and ships all over the world. Um pet care and household cleaning products. I remember the time, one of the times I was out to your facility, and I saw a giant pallet of pet products that were going to Saudi Arabia. Tons and tons of products for people who had pets that they wanted to take good care of on the other side of the world. And there were also, I mean, there were countries, you know, like Namibia and Kuwait and Sri Lanka. I was just um you're world-famous for your products. >> Yeah, we sell in over 70 countries. >> 70 countries. Yeah, that's that's amazing. So, it's a profitable business. It's not what you expected to do 10, 15 years ago. You have a degree in theology. You also have training in business. Give us a sense of what you do and what your journey is and we'll you know, we'll dig into it in details.

I been to your you know, to your floor. So, we'll we'll save that for a little bit later, but what do you do and tell us about your journey? >> Yeah, so I'm CEO of Cosmos Corporation. We own many brands like you mentioned in the pet and household clean up space. So, my journey, it's been a very odd one. So, I did my undergraduate at University of North Carolina Greensboro. I'm originally from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Um I was involved with Cru there, involved in local church, decided I think I want to go get a seminary degree. Uh so, I went to Southeastern Seminary. Mentioned studied theology, started out actually in an international church planting, took some some trips around the world which was great. Uh learned a lot about it. Slowly started to kind of get this itch more for business. I was doing an internship at a church. Uh I didn't move to the private sector, started working in like real estate development and management.

And um then switched my major in seminary to more theological studies. So, I've always been intrigued how does religion, business, politics, culture and economics, how do those intercede in the world? Um so, after seminary decided to actually go get another degree in in economics. So, moved to New York City, went to Columbia University. There's a good a great school called School of International Public Affairs that you study economics with and so, study that, uh worked at Columbia University, as well, in kind of the operations area, learned a lot. Um Columbia has a lot of access, as well, for staff to learn um other things. So, I I did a internal certificate program, a master's program on like organizational development. How do teams develop? How do institutions develop? How do processes and infrastructure inside of a company develop?

Which, uh you know, all led me to a interesting kind of point where I finished my degree. I was interviewing uh out in the world for an economics job. And I know you'll touch on it later, but my father-in-law approached me and said, "Hey, do you want to come, you know, work at our company? Um we do dog shampoo." And so, [laughter] >> Yeah, not quite what you thought you would be doing. >> Not quite what I thought, but here's what's interesting. I I will tell you a little funny story. So, my wife were at dinner. She had just got done running the New York City Marathon. Huge accomplishment. Uh her parents fly up there. Her dad, we're at dinner after it. She's dead tired. You know, we're like, "Oh, great accomplishment." Her dad goes, "Yeah, Landon uh we, my brothers and I, think you're the perfect person to take over the company." And and my wife >> how old at this time? You're 30? >> Yeah, I was 20 eight, let's say. Yeah. >> Come take over a company. It's not a tiny company. I want to make sure it's I mean, it's a building with space, and there's an assembly line, or many workers.

I don't know what the square footage is, but this is, you know, this is not You're not selling ice cream out of your basement. >> No, [laughter] no. It's It's like 250,000 square feet. Yeah, it's it's a big, you know, 12 manufacturing lines. It's big. >> [snorts] >> So, my wife actually kind of stops him and says, you know, "Landon's [clears throat] getting, you know, a degree from an Ivy League school in economics. He wants to go work in economics. And And I said, well, let's let the man finish, you know. So, we continued talking and we actually took them back, what's funny is we took them back uh to their hotel and on our way back up to to our apartment. Um Nicky goes, well, that was a little disrespectful of me. I probably shouldn't have interjected like that, but you're not interested. And I was like, no, I am interested. Like this is this is what I want to do. And the only way I can explain it is like Seinfeld. I don't know if you're a Seinfeld fan, but George Costanza is really good at Frogger, you know, and he has this Frogger machine that he wants to keep alive. And as he's taking it out with I think it was Slippery Pete that was his name actually. And he's taking it out and he has to cross this street with a bunch of different cars. And he's actually taking the Frogger machine through a real life Frogger example.

And And he looks at somebody and says, like this is what I've been training for my whole life. Is to get this Frogger machine to cross the Frogger. So, I said to my wife jokingly, I actually showed her that clip on YouTube. And I said to her like, I think this is it. Like I think this is what God's been leading me to. You know, I uh your family and I have great relationship. Uh I've studied theology. Like how does you know, I've studied business. I've studied how organizations develop. Uh I've I've kind of put my short life at the time into can religion actually change the way we act in these other spheres? Um and I feel like God was saying, look, I have prepared you. You've studied all this stuff. Uh now let's actually let you put it to work. And so, I ended up taking the job. But that's So, that's kind of the development. >> Yeah, so of course uh I was in some way or other a consultant when you were going through an interesting moment in your business.

And but you you know, I was there for hours. I was in your building meeting a number of your leaders for hours and I of course met some of your ordinary workers including you gave me this fascinating tour of the assembly line. But there are a number of things became clear that you do that definitely come from your faith. For example, um you're at the edge of the city of St. Louis. The you're at the edge of exurbs. It's not quite clear if you're in at the end of metro St. Louis or you're in the countryside of Missouri. And you have an approach to wages and to benefits, to education. I mean, I could I could summarize. I'll give you one example. I mean, you pay for pretty much any degree anybody who works at your place wants to study. You don't pay for the whole thing, but you support education. You affirm good works. Like if somebody wants to take a mission trip to uh I don't know, Afghanistan, you would support them. You would They They wouldn't take vacation time for that.

And you have a library in which you pay people to read books if they finish the books. What is going on? Is this an expression of your theological and economic convictions? How does this work? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Yes, it definitely is. Yeah, so we do all of this we have a a scholarship fund internally where anybody can apply um to any any aspect of furthering their education. So, you know, we have paid for somebody not totally to your point, but we've contributed payment to somebody to go get a nursing degree. Well, how are they going to use that at your business? They're not, but they're going to get into the field um of where they have interest to make a difference in the world. And if Cosmos is a small little step to help them get to where they need to be or inside of their realm of gifting, then you know, we're going to try to help them. So, we do that. We take applications every 6 months and every semester we contribute to those funds, which is a great you know, benefit. I think, you know, and the library books, you know, one of our core values is be a creator and it's how do you be a creator? You learn more.

You you have to be hungry. You read. So, you we'll pay you to read books and to get better. How does that impact to our faith? Um well, one more actually, a mission day. So, we have five mission days a year and we allow people to go out and serve the community. So, we say the worst thing that can happen on a mission day is that you make St. Louis or wherever you live, cuz we employ people all over the world, wherever you live a better place to live. That's the worst thing that can happen. You make it a better place to live. The best thing that can happen is you make it a better place to live. Um you hopefully you go with some co-workers. So, you build relationships with your co-workers and you deepen that. You know, we say uh it's a very corny saying that people make fun of me here for, but uh you know, shared experiences are the microwaves of relationships. I can spend 6 months working next to you, but if I spend 6 hours serving next to you, I now know your kids' names, I know your spouse's name, I know where you grew up, I knew I know, you know, what your hobbies are and now I have a shared experience that has pushed our relationship further.

And then last, you know, the the best thing that can happen is you actually come back in more of a servant leader. So, you know, I grew up playing basketball. If I wanted to get better at free throws, I have to shoot free throws. Um and we don't really understand servant leadership this way, but we should. If I want to be a servant leader, I have to go serve somebody to get better at it. Like I have to actually do it. So, part of the mission day is yeah, we want you to get out and if you're going to take a mission trip, if you want to serve at your kids' camp, just be involved in the community and make yourself a better person. How does that intersect with faith? For for us at the company and for me, it's, you know, Miroslav Volf shaped a lot of my thinking on some of this, which is, you know, get into the gifting of the spirit that's the you know, that has been given to work in the spirit. How do we allow people to use their giftings in many different areas uh here at work and elsewhere that enables for the world to be a better place. Uh if you're a better employee, you can achieve better things at your job, you can increase your income, you can create better products.

Like our whole goal is to make you more of a well-rounded person to help you flourish, which is what the Miroslav Volf part is, to help you flourish in your life. And if we help you flourish in your life, then we think we're lessening the effects of sin and bringing about God's kingdom. Uh and if we can do that, then you know, we're achieving our mission as a company. >> Wow. So, Lyndon, you've been in the seat of CEO for about 10 years, is that correct? >> Yeah. >> So, what was it that when your father-in-law presented this option, that one, he knew enough about you at such an early age to know that this would work, and what was it about the situation that you knew, oh, this would be a great fit? >> Yeah, great question. I think what I knew about the situation was it's a family and a business that gives back to the community. So, they make, you know, they make money, but they make that money in order to give back. I mean, they give away you know, large millions of large sums of money um to the world, and that intrigued me because it wasn't just for like to put on a bottle, buy one, and we give this away.

Like they're doing it uh they're doing it without broadcasting it. They're they know the the left hand is not telling the right hand what it's doing necessarily across um their marketing channels. That was interesting to me that that a business, a for-profit business, can operate in such a way that has a great culture and wants human flourishing and then can also give back uh, and they're doing it at a theological root. Like that was really intriguing to me. What he saw in me, I don't know, you have to ask him cuz I've asked the same question. But, I would say, you know, in uh, in my history, I have been put uh, uh, with some great leaders. I think back to uh, my bosses in North Carolina even as an intern at a church to the real estate company to Columbia had many great leaders. And they've put me in positions that push me and help me to get promoted and to achieve great things. And so, I've had success in my career. I've been put in a great position to have some great education. And so, I think he saw like, you know, you have great education and here in these other places you wouldn't keep getting promoted and having this success if there wasn't something there. And so, I hope he saw a track record of, you know, hopefully leading with integrity, uh, education, and experience that that can create uh, something great in a [clears throat] company when given the opportunity. So, yeah, there are um,

you there's any number of unique aspects of your business, but I have a feeling that um, worker retention goes up, satisfaction goes up, um, productivity goes up because of the policies you have. But, if I have a feeling that if somebody came to you and said, "Hey Lennon, love all these love all these activities we're engaging in, but we're losing key talent here because they're all going off and becoming nurses or or taking advantage of of too many weeks, too many days off on mission trips. It's it's counterproductive. It's not helping the bottom line." My guess is it does help the bottom line, maybe a lot. But you don't really care. I mean, if somebody said, "Yeah, we're losing $80,000 a year." You'd say, "Well, it's a small price to pay to do things the right way." >> Yeah, for sure. I agree with you. I think what we're looking for is, you know, I often say to them, "Boys, my goal with you is that you walk into the the business every single morning with energy because you're excited to come to work. And you work a full day of work and you leave with even more energy than you walked in."

Uh now, that's not going to happen every single day, but by and large, if that happens, then we have found a place where you can flourish because you're using your skill set. You feel like you're accomplishing something. You're working together as a team. Um and you're not just accomplishing something at Cosmos, you're accomplishing accomplishing something in the world. Um and so, I think these policies help that. I think these policies help retention, for sure. Uh I think they also help that employee feel as if uh they are being seen as a whole person as opposed to um you know, a marginal product of labor, right? A a unit of labor inside of a business. And so, I don't think it's a matter of is it helping us or not? It is helping us, I think. But if it wasn't, I still think it's the right thing to do because we're trying to tap into what impact does this person have on Cosmos? What impact can we have on that person?

And then, what impact does that person have on the world through their work and then in general by being a member of the Cosmos family. >> So, Landon, um do you When you think of all those policies that Dan has referenced, which one do you think has been the most impactful in terms of culture that you would go, "Wow, I can see the fruit of this." And which one have you been surprised that's been really hard to like it's harder soil for the kind of fruit you were hoping you would see. >> I would say the the one that I have been surprised is um the library. The we call it the better book club. Uh I've been shocked how many people love that. You're going to pay me to read. And when I say pay to read, like the highest book that we we read is $100, right? And and I get to uh assign the dollar value. You know, the highest one's $100. So if you read a book for $100 or if you read a book and and you fill out this quick six-question uh quiz. It's not even a quiz about the book. It's just how will you apply it?

You get $100. Uh I've been shocked how many people when we ask questions in a survey, what's your favorite benefit? It's the better book club. >> Really? >> People love it. People love it. And the participation is unbelievable. Um >> But it's a Can I just say it's a There's a lot of books. And they're about a lot of things. I mean, it's it's a library. It's >> I want to I want to know how much Dan's book is worth. That's what I want to know. So is it a $100 book? >> It is a $100. >> Is it? I want to know how much my book is worth. You probably don't even have it. So so [laughter] >> $100. >> You're lying. >> It is now. >> Okay. Yeah, there we go. >> You know, what work is, it's funny. We actually did have We do have Dan's book in there. I will say that. And it is worth $100. Um Uh the one that's the the most shocking is actually the mission days. Like we have to push our people to go do them. I think some people think it's a trap, you know, like what's the catch here, you know?

Um and so we have a great leader. I'll give you an example of a great leader named Sophie. She's uh our head of formulation. >> She actually What what does formulation mean? What does that mean? Formulation of the chemical product? >> a product. Yep. So she takes all the ingredients and makes the product. She's incredible. Um she's a believer. She's incredible. She's She's very intelligent. She's a great leader. She has it as a KPI for her team. So, it's, you know, are we on time with our projects? Are we on budget with our projects? Are our projects being efficacious when we test them? You know, all these KPIs in her One of them that she has up on her dashboard is, have we taken our mission days for the year? Uh and so, we're trying to push our leaders. Look, you got to get these people out into the communities to serve because that's who we are as a business. And I think it's a good reset for people. It gives them attachment to the world if that makes sense. >> Yeah, I like it. So, let me ask you a hard question.

And the first one is, um pet products? I mean I mean, I want to make, um if I'm going to be a manufacturer, I want to manufacture something that helps people with insulin problems and saves their life. Pet products. Now, you do it you don't just do pet products. And this is not a I'm not This is not a gotcha moment. We've had this conversation before. You knew this was coming, just to be clear. Um household cleaning products is good, people would say, but what's what's the How do you stand before God and say, "Lord, I'm I'm making really good pet products?" What's the rationale? What's You believe in all of life being redeemed? It's all offered to God. It's all for the common good. How are pet products I'm not I'm I love animals. Mark loves animals. You love animals. Um tell us about how you see caring for animals. >> A couple ways. One is, um let's start with a very high level is stewardship, right? Like I came into the business in 2016.

Uh they had been in pet products for roughly 37 years, you You before that. So, stewardship it's it's a business. To your point, it's all redeemed. Can we make pet products? Can we make money from pet products and give it back to the poor and needy around the globe, all to the glory of God, which is what our mission statement says, then yeah, let's do it. You know, it's wonderful. I think the second one is you know, pets do bring a ton of joy. We actually have our conference rooms. I know Dan, we've talked about this. Our conference rooms on the front of the building are are named after hero dogs. And it's dogs who sit with um children who are sitting alone in a courtroom because they're having to testify about something bad that's happened with their parents. And you wouldn't believe it. The dog's name is Sully. It's here in St. Charles County. And the dog's name is Sully, and the dog actually sits with the the the child and calms the child, and child can pet it in between questions and and hug in between questions, and it's a soothing agent.

You know, I have a 8-year-old son, and when he comes home from a stressful day, you know what he does? He walks up to our dog named Winston, and he gives our dog a hug, and he smells the dog cuz it smells great cuz of TropiClean, plug for the products. But, he he he hugs the dog, and it it just destresses him. And so, I do see pets play a role in our life to help us come back to reality and just sit and rest for a second. I know Winston does that for our family. And they bring joy to to us, and it's God's creation, taking care of God's creation. I think the other the last portion of it that is really interesting is um when we're stressed at work, uh at least when I'm stressed and when our group is stressed because we have a deadline and we have to get there, you know, the number one thing we say is like, "Guys, we're making dog shampoo." Like, it's okay. Calm down. Like you know, um uh we're going to get it done. We're going to get it done the right way. And if we don't get it made by the exact deadline, we need to be very close. But we're making dog shampoo. It's not insulin for, you know, for humans. And so >> [snorts] >> part of it, joyful, is that um we are making something that brings joy for other people. Um we're making something that can make money to give back to the world and provide for missions work across the world. And we're making

something that allows our company to do these cultural initiatives that is not, you know, hugely risky. >> Yeah. Mark Mark, you have a question in a second, but um I'm just going to add that in my view, uh so many people who are widowed have as their principal companion, if they live far from their children, grandchildren, especially if they've had a broken family for some reason. Uh their animal companion is very important to them. And so you're actually bringing healing and redemption, not just to a kid who had a rough day, but to somebody could be profoundly lonely. And then of course, as you mentioned, you know, these are God's creatures. And one of the things everybody knows, but we don't practice very well, is is the need to be connected to nature. You know, the studies that show that if you're depressed, you can take um a medication and going outside and going for a walk for 40 minutes is every bit as effective, maybe a tiny bit more effective, than taking an antidepressant.

So, um I have a high view of um of God's animal creation. But Mark, you wanted to ask something or say something. >> Yeah, so Landon, you're a fascinating guy. And Dan's right, if we lived in the same city, we'd be friends, cuz I I have so many things I just want to ask you. I'm so fascinated. But my question, I guess, is where did your instinct for the integration of faith and work come from? Was it just always there? Was it a parental thing? Was it a church thing? Like where where did this unusual application of this it just seems like it's like breathing for you so natural. Where did where did that come from? >> Yeah. I feel like it's been deep within me for a while. Where did I finally have it surfaced? You know, in in 2000 10, I think it was. Um I got involved in a community group through a church and there was a leader his name's Derek and I had some friends there Trevor and Sam and Rachel and Seth these this group of people um and we actually read James Davison Hunter to change the world together.

Um and the idea was you know, faithful presence inside of a community brings about God's kingdom. And that just was really interesting to me. I was in seminary. Um one of my favorite professors was John Frame and I was reading some of his work on ethics and how this can be applied across business. I was reading James Davison Hunter to change the world. And we were talking about how how do we go about being faithful in our local community. And everybody had you know, one of those guys was a school teacher, another one was a police officer, another one was a pastor. >> [snorts] >> And um I just kept seeing that man if if I could start a business that could provide jobs, I can actually go about being faithful in this community and start lessening the effects of sin which are poverty, sickness, a lack of food. And I just kept coming back to like business and economics can help solve this problem uh or at least get us closer to God's kingdom and alleviate those effects of sin than almost anything. Yeah, you could say like medical professional and things like that, but but I just kept going back to like providing a stable job at a profitable business um and providing an area where economic growth can happen.

And having the right theology of why you're creating that growth and income really can go a long way at pushing us into the faithful presence of a community. Uh it just was that just kept happening. So then I get put in kept getting put in places where uh that's what the people around me were interested in. I get kept giving opportunity given opportunities to serve and jobs where that was present. Um but it was really the reading of those those books. I would even add, you know, every good endeavor in there by Tim Keller. That was really big. Uh a public faith, flourishing, work in the spirit by Miroslav Volf, obviously work by Dan Doriani. And [snorts] so there's this like whole picture of of people I was reading outside, you know, of my realm that just kept nudging me towards this is a way that you can be faithful to the gifts that God has given you, bring about his kingdom, and invite others to join to multiply the impact.

>> Let me boast for you for a minute, if I may. People don't know exactly um where you're located. So, uh Landon's company is located on the edge of a city where jobs aren't quite as plentiful and they don't pay quite as well. And so when he says job creation, that's that's not rhetoric, that's a reality. There are people who have good jobs, lasting jobs with benefits. And if I can say you you you know, you may have some of your people listen to this and they may say something but um my understanding is you pay a little more than you would quote-unquote need to. You try to pay them as much as you can while still being responsible for your bottom line. So, it's not rhetoric when Landon says, "We're creating jobs and stability." You give people benefits in a job and a stable job and people stay there pretty long. So, I just want to say kudos. You didn't say it. I want to make sure people hear that. He You know, he's not This is not full of rhetoric and you're paying the minimum wage cuz you can get away with it, >> right? >> Yeah. >> No.

>> It's It's a different organization. Not exploitative, but um that said, it's not always easy. I mean, you're running assembly line, which means you have mechanics and your machines that break down and don't operate right and somebody has to go run get something. I mean, it's not glory all the time. And people bring their work in. How do you manage You know, you have very high aspirations. You're doing a great job at achieving them. But you also have to deal with uh people who come to work with their problems and with all the unfortunate events that occur when you're a manufacturing facility. Walk us through the the mundane difficulties or challenges. >> Yeah, finding manufacturing help, I think, you know, manufacturing CEOs would tell you that it's hard to find good help sometimes, to find good employees. Um So, we have disruptions of when we're trying to find the right people. Um you know, when uh when your pay uh is just helping you get by in a 25 cents an hour across the street matters a lot. And so, we have we sometimes there's turnover there when they're offered. Now, I would say that we do have some people who leave the company for that. Um and a decent amount of them come back in the next couple months. Hey, I realized that that I like the work-life balance or I like

the way that I was treated here. And so, we try to save the holistic offering of Cosmoses. We're definitely going to pay a livable wage. Like, that's what we we want to do, pay a livable wage. We're going to have a great culture. We're going to treat you like a human made in God's image. But, all of those have hiccups in the you know, in the process. We definitely, you know, supply chain outages are are not always fun to deal with. And unfortunately, since I became CEO, I feel like that's just a constant. You know, you had COVID, and you could say supply chain outages from 2020 up to 2022. And then, uh you know, most recently, tariffs. You know, that's been a whole disruption. So, you're trying to lead the business in a specific way, and the next thing you know, you're getting tugged on your back shirt from from people in the business. Hey, we have this issue. We got to solve this issue. We got to solve this issue. Um and then just in general, you know, inflation and consumer demand um has fluctuated over the years. Um I know, Dan, we you were here in 2020 and 2021, and you know, we couldn't make enough pet care products. Um 22, the opposite happened. It just for whatever reason, demand just fell off the face of the earth. Uh people bought all their pet care products in 2020 and 2021.

>> [snorts] >> And it was probably the most difficult year, you know, one of the most difficult years of my life because, you know, we had to to scale down. We had to reduce our workforce. We had to um button up our financials and our process because we were building towards a path of 2020 and 2021. In 22, our sales went backwards by 25%. And so, those day-to-day things of uh you know, it's not woe is me necessarily. Oh, woe is the CEO. You know, it's more like, hey, we're trying to provide a job, and we see our main job as providing a good culture, a good job for employees and providing um an income that can be given back to the poor around the globe. And in '22 that was hit pretty hard from an income perspective. You know, we had to part ways with some people who uh meant a lot to us. Some of them, you know, have been over to our to my house for dinner. Uh it's very difficult to do that in order to shore up the finances.

And so uh by and large we've grown, you know, four times since I came on, uh you know, 400% but there's definitely years and seasons of very very difficult, challenging times that uh yeah, you got to rely on God. It also tells you who's in control. The good times are because of me, the bad times are because of the circumstances. Well, it's not really true, right? Uh the good times are because I've been blessed, the bad times are because I'm going through a difficult time and one day this will probably be seen as a blessing but it's not at this exact amount of time, you know. >> Right. Yeah, thanks. >> Wow. >> Hey, Layne, when you think of the average pastor who might maybe listen to this program, you have a theology degree, you're a church guy, what what would you say to pastors about helping guys like you who are navigating all kinds of challenges and trying to figure out how to bring some sort of common good to the world. What do you think they how could they help you or how do you think pastors in general could help business leaders?

>> That's a great question. Um I can tell you how my pastor has helped me. Um you know, it is lonely being at the top. It's kind of a cliché saying but it is lonely. Um you know, I think Saving Private Ryan said it best, my complaints go up, my complaints don't go down. And so it's hard to share some stuff that you're struggling with with your team all the time. Um there's only a certain amount of people who can understand the struggle that you're going through. And so I've relied on my pastor, Brian, who Dan knows really well. Uh Um Brian Rostin's been a sounding board for me. You know, I go to him and say, "You got to help me reconcile these two things cuz I got to make this very difficult decision, but yet I feel like I'm failing." Help me Help me reconcile that. He's been a sounding board, a listening board. He reminds me of the gospel. He reminds me of uh my call to steward the resources that I've been given well. He reminds me um that we can make bad decisions uh that lead to bad outcomes.

Uh but it doesn't mean we're a failure. And what it means is we learn from those and we move forward towards the calling that God has given us. And so there there is a a reconciliation in my head that has to happen between all of those different pieces. And even with a theological training, uh you know, people can't get out of their own way. Sin can't get out of my own head. >> [snorts] >> Um yet my pastor can speak the truth to me directly, and I trust him, and he doesn't need to have a business sense, though Brian does. He doesn't need to have a business sense. He needs to know me as a person, uh know what I'm feeling, me to be vulnerable with him, and for him to call me back to the gospel. Um And it may sound like, "Well, the CEO, this guy's got it all together. He doesn't need that." No, all all CEOs need that. Because it's tough. And And the one thing I love about Brian, I will say one more thing One thing I love about that I would give any encouragement to a pastor is don't be passive. Like Brian isn't passive at it. You know, he we go out to dinner and he just flat out asks me, you know, what are you struggling with? What's the what's going on in your head? How is work going? You know, you don't have anybody that you can speak candidly with.

What is it you need to say, you know? Um now, he he's a lawyer in training and and took Dan's classes at Covenant. And [snorts] so, he's a very, very intelligent guy who can push in on things and say, are you believing the truth or are you believing a lie? >> But can I say he says it that he's a gentle guy. He smiles as he says hard things. And I do think that his business experience, I mean, business law. And he still practices law a tiny bit. I think it it keeps it keeps him grounded. Probably makes him a little bit stronger because he hasn't gotten isolated from the workplace. >> So, I think a pastor can lean into it. You do have a role in helping clear the head of business executives because they're con- you know, everything I've learned about CEOs, I'm in some peer sharing groups here in St. Louis with CEOs, our heads never turn off. You can't turn it off.

It's impossible to turn it off. Um and the pastor can help you get back to really the call of the gospel, the call of what your life is. You know, I'm still a dad to three boys. I'm still a husband to Nikki. Uh I'm still a brother to my sisters, a son to my parents, um a community group member, you know, to my church. And so, he still grounds me in the life that God's given me, which is super helpful. >> Yeah, so, um we asked the question, how does your faith shape your business? You've answered that beautifully. Thank you. And how are you changing your corner of the world? The answer is good jobs, treating people with dignity, uh giving them all sorts of opportunities to expand, not just do the work, not just be a a uh production unit or a cost of production. And I'm sure that explains why people come back to you. We don't have a ton of time left. I want to go to the the um the rapid-fire questions at the end, but I think Mark wants to maybe ask one more question. Before we go to rapid-fire, just looking at your body language in your chair, Mark. What do you want to say or ask?

>> so many, but I want to go back to your small group. I'm fascinated with that. You mentioned three or four business leaders. You can Was that something that happened by accidental providence? Was it by design? Was that a church thing that was hey, get these people together? Like what what was that that place that uh you had all those connections with? >> In other words, do you have a genius pastor who's doing what we think needs to be done? That is to gathering business leaders or medical leaders together in one place so that there's a uh you know, a concatenation of brilliant ideas and shared goals and sparks start to fly. That's what he wants to know. Is this a big plan or is this Does Is it an apparent accident? >> Yeah, it was an apparent accident um that I didn't know I needed until I found it. And it's a group of CEOs um uh uh and and there's really two groups, one that are believers and Christians and the others that that aren't. You know, I don't keep them separate.

They're just two different groups, if you will. Um but the ones that are believers, you know, they all have the same We all have the same struggles. Um and so having those conversations about work-life balance, about turning your mind off, you know, when you're stressed at work, how does that come out in your kids? How does that come out in your wife? How does it come in in relationships? Are you believing a lie every day that you're not enough and you should be offering your company more and so therefore you're involved in this rat race, you know? That type of thing you can really only have you even have to discuss with anybody. I think I have found that those are best done in community of other believing business executives and so yeah, my encouragement is find people and I think it's the same thing like Dan was saying. I'm sure doctors have their own. I'm not sure what that is, but I'm sure they have the same mental, you know, games that are played. Um >> I guarantee you school administrators have the same.

>> School administrators, yeah. >> Wherever you go. >> What are these parents thinking of me? How am I serving the kids? Can I serve the kids more? Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. So it's good to get together with people who are So I mean even manufacturing entrepreneurship CEO whatever you're making there are there are similarities and if you have a thousand employees or 81 employees the same issues come up with employees and I I love your list. Can I just repeat it? Um how do I turn my mind off? Mark Mark and I would agree. I mean but we've both been not CEOs but when you lead a large church how can I stop talk thinking about this? How can I be totally present with my wife, my child my friend stress work-life balance and the lie that you're not enough you need to keep offering more you're a bad leader failed leader incompetent leader. That's four it's a great list. Um and they'll be in the show notes for people who wonder if you have the same problems as everybody else. >> Yeah.

>> Um certainly similar problems. All right, ready? Rapid fire. These have to be one minute or less. These are mine Mark is going to have one of his own at some point. What's your greatest joy in life? >> Watching my three boys play sports. The older two are into baseball, the youngest is into uh soccer right now. He loves it. Uh it's so much fun. I'm actually coaching uh my oldest son in baseball and in basketball. Uh and so tonight we have a baseball game. So, I am I got a lot of work to do, but I'm very excited about coaching my son's baseball game tonight. >> That's fantastic. If you had 1 minute with a brand new CEO who's going into manufacturing, they're a disciple. You're just I can talk to you, but you got to talk to me while I'm walking to my car. Got to get to the airport. What would you say to a young CEO Christian manufacturing? >> Yeah. Uh my number one advice is it's all about people. It's all about people.

It's uh find the right person to lead who's going to lead the way you want. Find the right people to fit in your organization. Uh I would say be as honest as possible about what your ambitions are as an organization. Tell them the truth. Um we're not going to be the most efficient manufacturing place in the world. Cosmos won't be. But, we will do what the customer needs. Uh we will do a product market fit and we will treat you like a human being made in God's image. Um and if you treat people great, they will treat you great. Um that that would be my advice. It's all about people. It's all about people. It's all about people. >> All right. I have one more then Mark is going to ask you one. Ready? Here goes. What do people get wrong about manufacturing, assembly lines, product formulation? Um and maybe I'll get a twofer in here. And how do you take out the garbage? They're connected, obviously. What do people get wrong? Is there some hidden difficulty? >> Yeah. Uh I think what people get wrong is that >> [snorts] >> it's just a bunch of brute people who want to work in manufacturing and it's a down and dirty difficult job. I I don't I don't think that's the case. Um I would say where do I get that from? I hear that through almost everybody who is not involved in a manufacturing company. Oh, that's got to be tough.

Um it's not. Uh our people are fantastic. Um they want to grow. You know, a majority of you know, a majority of our scholarship money given out is to our our manufacturing team. Uh the the majority of people who read our Better Book Club is our manufacturing team. Um they want to grow. They want to learn new things. And we've seen a resurgence of young people coming out of high school who want to be in manufacturing. And they want to be in manufacturing cuz they like making something with their hands. Uh and so I would say that that's probably what people get wrong. How do I take out the garbage? Um you know, I would say that our our number one core value is be willing to make the coffee. I say number one cuz one I like the most. Be willing to make the coffee and it means how can you serve the person behind you? If you empty the coffee pot and you are late for a meeting, you have two choices. One is to make the coffee and be 2 minutes late for your meeting or to set it down and make somebody else make the coffee and then wait on it till it's done to serve them. We're asking you to be late for the meeting and make the coffee for the person behind you.

And I think, you know, that's how I take out the garbage. We institute care for other people above yourself. Servant leadership. >> to tell you, just zinged me in a really good way. Cuz if there's 7 oz of coffee left, I'll take three so I don't feel bad and have to make the coffee. >> We're asking people not to do that. >> Yeah, well, for [laughter] what it's worth, I never drink more than 3 oz of coffee anyway, so it's not totally corrupt. Mark, what do you want to ask or say? >> Yeah, so Landon, you're on your way to your son's baseball game tonight, but you've had a bad day. Your head is full of all sorts of things. What's the thing that you do to quickly clear your head, at least partially, so you can be all in for your son? >> Yeah. It's great I've learned this over the years. I've made many mistakes by not doing this. I turn off the radio and I I pray out loud the stress that is happening in my life. And uh I recount the blessings that I have, that I'm going to be able to go see my son play baseball. I'm going to be able to feed him dinner.

>> [clears throat] >> I'm going to be able to uh you know, study his Bible verse with him that night, and I'm going to be able to play him music as he goes to bed. Uh and then I just take a deep breath and I uh praise thankfulness. I I [music] pray that my head would be cleared, and then I also pray through the situation that I'm stressed about. Uh what I used [music] to do is turn the radio on and try to numb myself. Uh >> [music] >> it doesn't work. Um I try to sit in silence. Um if I if I come to an impasse, if I just need something, then I'll I have a a playlist on my uh Amazon [music] Music that is called Christian, and it's just a list of hymns, and I'll just play that. [music] That's my go-to if not good for me. >> It's great. Very practical. Thank you. >> But Landon, uh you know I like you, and so it's been a delight to have an excuse to hang with you for a while. And I'm really glad I got to introduce my friend Mark [music] to my friend Landon.

And I'll hope that somehow you all meet face to face and uh shake hands and um talk about gospel and living for the Lord. [music] Thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you all.