Better Together: Men and Women in the Church

Good Good afternoon. Welcome to Better Together. afternoon. Welcome to Better Together. afternoon. Welcome to Better Together. I'm Vanessa Hawkins and we're here to I'm Vanessa Hawkins and we're here to I'm Vanessa Hawkins and we're here to talk about men and women working talk about men and women working talk about men and women working together to do the work of ministry. And together to do the work of ministry. And together to do the work of ministry. And I think many of us would agree that we I think many of us would agree that we I think many of us would agree that we are better together. Um we better and are better together. Um we better and are better together. Um we better and more fully represent the image of God more fully represent the image of God more fully represent the image of God when we work together in ministry as men when we work together in ministry as men when we work together in ministry as men and women. I think however it's and women. I think however it's and women. I think however it's sometimes a little bit more difficult to sometimes a little bit more difficult to sometimes a little bit more difficult to figure out how that looks in our figure out how that looks in our figure out how that looks in our particular context. And so we're hoping particular context. And so we're hoping particular context. And so we're hoping today that we can help move us towards today that we can help move us towards today that we can help move us towards um that ideal. So to talk about that we um that ideal. So to talk about that we um that ideal. So to talk about that we have with us Michael Keller who is the have with us Michael Keller who is the have with us Michael Keller who is the pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square uh in pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square uh in pastor of Redeemer Lincoln Square uh in New York City. Welcome Michael. Hello. New York City. Welcome Michael. Hello. New York City. Welcome Michael. Hello. Hello. We have Jen Wilin, who is a Bible Hello. We have Jen Wilin, who is a Bible Hello. We have Jen Wilin, who is a Bible teacher, uh, author. Um, it's who I, teacher, uh, author. Um, it's who I, teacher, uh, author. Um, it's who I, it's my go-to for Bible literacy. Um, it's my go-to for Bible literacy. Um, it's my go-to for Bible literacy. Um, Jen, welcome. Welcome, Jen Wilin. Jen, welcome. Welcome, Jen Wilin. Jen, welcome. Welcome, Jen Wilin. Welcome. Thank you. It's hard to say. It Welcome. Thank you. It's hard to say. It Welcome. Thank you. It's hard to say. It is harder than one mind. Welcome.

is harder than one mind. Welcome. is harder than one mind. Welcome. And then we have JT English who is also And then we have JT English who is also And then we have JT English who is also author, pastor, uh, just allaround good author, pastor, uh, just allaround good author, pastor, uh, just allaround good guy. guy. guy. glad you're here. Love, love, love his glad you're here. Love, love, love his glad you're here. Love, love, love his book um on disciplehip, deep book um on disciplehip, deep book um on disciplehip, deep disciplehip. So, welcome. We have people disciplehip. So, welcome. We have people disciplehip. So, welcome. We have people here who uh who live this out uh in here who uh who live this out uh in here who uh who live this out uh in their regular context and so hopefully their regular context and so hopefully their regular context and so hopefully they can help us think about how to do they can help us think about how to do they can help us think about how to do this in our own uh particular context. this in our own uh particular context. this in our own uh particular context. So, to get started, let's talk about why So, to get started, let's talk about why So, to get started, let's talk about why is there been a need for this discussion is there been a need for this discussion is there been a need for this discussion and talk to us a little bit about the and talk to us a little bit about the and talk to us a little bit about the biblical implications of that. biblical implications of that. biblical implications of that. I came to this conversation a little bit I came to this conversation a little bit I came to this conversation a little bit uh I you know one of the things that one uh I you know one of the things that one uh I you know one of the things that one of my favorite theologians Augustine of my favorite theologians Augustine of my favorite theologians Augustine says he talks about how all theology and says he talks about how all theology and says he talks about how all theology and ministry is ultimately autobiography and ministry is ultimately autobiography and ministry is ultimately autobiography and what he means by that is our cares about what he means by that is our cares about what he means by that is our cares about what the Bible says are also shaped and what the Bible says are also shaped and what the Bible says are also shaped and formed by the stories that we have and formed by the stories that we have and formed by the stories that we have and one of the things that uh I've talked a one of the things that uh I've talked a one of the things that uh I've talked a lot about with this crew and Jen in lot about with this crew and Jen in lot about with this crew and Jen in particular over the years is I came to particular over the years is I came to particular over the years is I came to faith uh in college I didn't grow up faith uh in college I didn't grow up faith uh in college I didn't grow up knowing the Lord I didn't grow up in the knowing the Lord I didn't grow up in the knowing the Lord I didn't grow up in the church I didn't understand uh even that church I didn't understand uh even that church I didn't understand uh even that there would be a gender dynamic or a there would be a gender dynamic or a there would be a gender dynamic or a power and authority dynamic dynamic in power and authority dynamic dynamic in power and authority dynamic dynamic in the church because I didn't go to the church because I didn't go to the church because I didn't go to church. Uh I just didn't understand. And church. Uh I just didn't understand. And church. Uh I just didn't understand. And when I came to faith, my my mom, she was when I came to faith, my my mom, she was when I came to faith, my my mom, she was the vice president for the Colorado the vice president for the Colorado the vice president for the Colorado Rockies baseball team, which I thought Rockies baseball team, which I thought Rockies baseball team, which I thought was like the best job ever. She's a was like the best job ever. She's a was like the best job ever. She's a better job than I have uh to be except better job than I have uh to be except better job than I have uh to be except for the Rockies are the worst team in for the Rockies are the worst team in for the Rockies are the worst team in baseball right now. I don't want to talk baseball right now. I don't want to talk baseball right now. I don't want to talk about it. Uh but I, you know, she was a about it. Uh but I, you know, she was a about it. Uh but I, you know, she was a kind of a highpowered, highly competent kind of a highpowered, highly competent kind of a highpowered, highly competent leader in her field. And then when I leader in her field. And then when I leader in her field. And then when I came to faith and I started getting

came to faith and I started getting came to faith and I started getting involved in the church, one of the involved in the church, one of the involved in the church, one of the questions that kind of peaked into my questions that kind of peaked into my questions that kind of peaked into my mind is what? Because she wasn't a mind is what? Because she wasn't a mind is what? Because she wasn't a believer either. She is a believer now. believer either. She is a believer now. believer either. She is a believer now. She serves in our local church and the She serves in our local church and the She serves in our local church and the Lord's done a a great work in her life. Lord's done a a great work in her life. Lord's done a a great work in her life. But one of the things that really kind But one of the things that really kind But one of the things that really kind of in terms of my story made me want to of in terms of my story made me want to of in terms of my story made me want to care about this conversation was care about this conversation was care about this conversation was thinking about what would it be like if thinking about what would it be like if thinking about what would it be like if God saved her and invited her into the God saved her and invited her into the God saved her and invited her into the life of the local church. How could she life of the local church. How could she life of the local church. How could she use her gifts, her skill sets, uh how use her gifts, her skill sets, uh how use her gifts, her skill sets, uh how would she be welcome just as a sister would she be welcome just as a sister would she be welcome just as a sister and how then could she potentially and how then could she potentially and how then could she potentially minister and lead uh in the life of a minister and lead uh in the life of a minister and lead uh in the life of a local church? And so also being married local church? And so also being married local church? And so also being married to my wife who's she serves outside the to my wife who's she serves outside the to my wife who's she serves outside the church and Jen knows Macy well. is just church and Jen knows Macy well. is just church and Jen knows Macy well. is just one of the best people on the planet. one of the best people on the planet. one of the best people on the planet. And so I'm highly invested in thinking And so I'm highly invested in thinking And so I'm highly invested in thinking about how do how do the women in my life about how do how do the women in my life about how do how do the women in my life feel loved, called, equipped to use feel loved, called, equipped to use feel loved, called, equipped to use their gifts in the life of the church. their gifts in the life of the church. their gifts in the life of the church. And I uh I met JT, how long have we And I uh I met JT, how long have we And I uh I met JT, how long have we known each other? Maybe 12 years now, known each other? Maybe 12 years now, known each other? Maybe 12 years now, something like that. Yeah. Um I met JT something like that. Yeah. Um I met JT something like that. Yeah. Um I met JT after many years of serving in in the after many years of serving in in the after many years of serving in in the local church in in various roles, most local church in in various roles, most local church in in various roles, most of them volunteer, some of them of them volunteer, some of them of them volunteer, some of them part-time, and that was by choice often part-time, and that was by choice often part-time, and that was by choice often because I was looking to keep my life as because I was looking to keep my life as because I was looking to keep my life as flexible as possible. But I grew up with flexible as possible. But I grew up with flexible as possible. But I grew up with four brothers um who liked me and four brothers um who liked me and four brothers um who liked me and thought I had interesting things to say thought I had interesting things to say thought I had interesting things to say and valued my opinion. And I had a and valued my opinion. And I had a and valued my opinion. And I had a father who loved me and valued what I father who loved me and valued what I father who loved me and valued what I had to say and thought I had interesting had to say and thought I had interesting had to say and thought I had interesting opinions. And then I married a guy named opinions. And then I married a guy named opinions. And then I married a guy named Jeff who loved me and valued me and Jeff who loved me and valued me and Jeff who loved me and valued me and thought I had interesting opinions. And thought I had interesting opinions. And thought I had interesting opinions. And then I got out of college and took my then I got out of college and took my then I got out of college and took my first job in the workplace. And I met first job in the workplace. And I met first job in the workplace. And I met with a lot of um positive feedback on my with a lot of um positive feedback on my with a lot of um positive feedback on my ability to um lead and to um and to um

ability to um lead and to um and to um ability to um lead and to um and to um manage my area of the company. And it manage my area of the company. And it manage my area of the company. And it was not until I started serving in the was not until I started serving in the was not until I started serving in the local church that I met with a different local church that I met with a different local church that I met with a different vibe. Um and I just remember still the vibe. Um and I just remember still the vibe. Um and I just remember still the shock of that. And I do like to say shock of that. And I do like to say shock of that. And I do like to say anytime we start to have this anytime we start to have this anytime we start to have this conversation, there are no villains in conversation, there are no villains in conversation, there are no villains in my story. There was nobody who woke up my story. There was nobody who woke up my story. There was nobody who woke up in the morning and thought, "How can we in the morning and thought, "How can we in the morning and thought, "How can we make it hard for a woman to serve in the make it hard for a woman to serve in the make it hard for a woman to serve in the local church?" Um, I have served with a local church?" Um, I have served with a local church?" Um, I have served with a lot of really good men through the lot of really good men through the lot of really good men through the years. Um, when JT and I when our paths years. Um, when JT and I when our paths years. Um, when JT and I when our paths crossed about 12 years ago, um, we found crossed about 12 years ago, um, we found crossed about 12 years ago, um, we found that there was just a lot of room for that there was just a lot of room for that there was just a lot of room for partnership around things that we both partnership around things that we both partnership around things that we both cared a lot about about um, Christian cared a lot about about um, Christian cared a lot about about um, Christian education in the local church. I knew education in the local church. I knew education in the local church. I knew that I cared about Bible literacy. He that I cared about Bible literacy. He that I cared about Bible literacy. He knew that he cared about theological knew that he cared about theological knew that he cared about theological literacy. We tolerated each other on the literacy. We tolerated each other on the literacy. We tolerated each other on the things that we didn't share. I'm like, things that we didn't share. I'm like, things that we didn't share. I'm like, "Whatever, you go do your thing." Um, "Whatever, you go do your thing." Um, "Whatever, you go do your thing." Um, and over time, we began to see that not and over time, we began to see that not and over time, we began to see that not only was only was only was partnership desire that it not only was partnership desire that it not only was partnership desire that it not only was it desirable, it was like enjoyable and it desirable, it was like enjoyable and it desirable, it was like enjoyable and good and and and then to develop good and and and then to develop good and and and then to develop convictions around wait a minute, maybe convictions around wait a minute, maybe convictions around wait a minute, maybe maybe we've really missed something um maybe we've really missed something um maybe we've really missed something um when we've said that um that this can't when we've said that um that this can't when we've said that um that this can't possibly work and and shouldn't work.

possibly work and and shouldn't work. possibly work and and shouldn't work. That's right. Yeah. Uh just my uh That's right. Yeah. Uh just my uh That's right. Yeah. Uh just my uh contribution for as far as why we're contribution for as far as why we're contribution for as far as why we're having this conversation, why do we need having this conversation, why do we need having this conversation, why do we need this conversation is I I think uh you this conversation is I I think uh you this conversation is I I think uh you know when you go to um Genesis 2 and it know when you go to um Genesis 2 and it know when you go to um Genesis 2 and it says let's make you know um humankind in says let's make you know um humankind in says let's make you know um humankind in my image. Let's make mankind in my my image. Let's make mankind in my my image. Let's make mankind in my image. We are made in God's image. God image. We are made in God's image. God image. We are made in God's image. God is three persons. And so you have their is three persons. And so you have their is three persons. And so you have their God is one. God is three persons. You God is one. God is three persons. You God is one. God is three persons. You have unity and diversity. And I think have unity and diversity. And I think have unity and diversity. And I think one of the problems we have is how do one of the problems we have is how do one of the problems we have is how do you actually do unity and diversity you actually do unity and diversity you actually do unity and diversity together? And I think there's this together? And I think there's this together? And I think there's this there's this idea of no, we're equal uh there's this idea of no, we're equal uh there's this idea of no, we're equal uh male and female. we're equal, but it male and female. we're equal, but it male and female. we're equal, but it doesn't just because we're equal doesn't doesn't just because we're equal doesn't doesn't just because we're equal doesn't mean we're the same. And and I think we mean we're the same. And and I think we mean we're the same. And and I think we struggle with that. There's a there's a struggle with that. There's a there's a struggle with that. There's a there's a historical American context to that historical American context to that historical American context to that because when you use that phrase equal, because when you use that phrase equal, because when you use that phrase equal, uh, you know, we're equal but different, uh, you know, we're equal but different, uh, you know, we're equal but different, there tends to be uh power dynamics that there tends to be uh power dynamics that there tends to be uh power dynamics that are that are laden in that. So, I think are that are laden in that. So, I think are that are laden in that. So, I think we struggle with how do we say there's we struggle with how do we say there's we struggle with how do we say there's equality, there's there's um uh equality, there's there's um uh equality, there's there's um uh full equaleness uh in that, but then full equaleness uh in that, but then full equaleness uh in that, but then also we don't have to be the same. We also we don't have to be the same. We also we don't have to be the same. We can actually be different. There's a can actually be different. There's a can actually be different. There's a beauty in that. there's a uh and I think beauty in that. there's a uh and I think beauty in that. there's a uh and I think we struggle. Um so I think we need to we struggle. Um so I think we need to we struggle. Um so I think we need to have this conversation because we don't have this conversation because we don't have this conversation because we don't know how to actually hold those two know how to actually hold those two know how to actually hold those two things together. Uh be to be able to things together. Uh be to be able to things together. Uh be to be able to say, "Hey, it's okay that we're we're say, "Hey, it's okay that we're we're say, "Hey, it's okay that we're we're not actually the same, that we have uh not actually the same, that we have uh not actually the same, that we have uh different functions and different roles different functions and different roles different functions and different roles and different things that we're good and and different things that we're good and and different things that we're good and bad at, but we're actually equal and we bad at, but we're actually equal and we bad at, but we're actually equal and we need each other and we're actually only need each other and we're actually only need each other and we're actually only the best when we actually come the best when we actually come the best when we actually come together." I I think we don't know how together." I I think we don't know how together." I I think we don't know how to do that. We don't know how to do that to do that. We don't know how to do that to do that. We don't know how to do that not just in the church. We don't know not just in the church. We don't know not just in the church. We don't know how to do that in home. We don't know how to do that in home. We don't know how to do that in home. We don't know how to do that anywhere I've seen it. So how to do that anywhere I've seen it. So how to do that anywhere I've seen it. So I think that's why we're having the I think that's why we're having the I think that's why we're having the conversation. That's such a beautiful conversation. That's such a beautiful conversation. That's such a beautiful theological view um Michael of our

theological view um Michael of our theological view um Michael of our interdependence and our need for one interdependence and our need for one interdependence and our need for one another. Do you you know and and why another. Do you you know and and why another. Do you you know and and why that eludes us and why we struggle to that eludes us and why we struggle to that eludes us and why we struggle to create that? Do you think that this type create that? Do you think that this type create that? Do you think that this type of interdependence this type of working of interdependence this type of working of interdependence this type of working together is it possible to achieve that together is it possible to achieve that together is it possible to achieve that in in in every context? in in in every context? in in in every context? Uh you asking me or asking all I'm Uh you asking me or asking all I'm Uh you asking me or asking all I'm asking you all. Yeah. Again I think it asking you all. Yeah. Again I think it asking you all. Yeah. Again I think it comes down I think power is the problem. comes down I think power is the problem. comes down I think power is the problem. I think we don't know how to handle um I think we don't know how to handle um I think we don't know how to handle um either unspoken power dynamics or spoken either unspoken power dynamics or spoken either unspoken power dynamics or spoken ones and whatnot. And I think when you ones and whatnot. And I think when you ones and whatnot. And I think when you get to power uh and those get to power uh and those get to power uh and those differentiations that that's where the differentiations that that's where the differentiations that that's where the the issues come. I think there's a the issues come. I think there's a the issues come. I think there's a historical context to this. I think historical context to this. I think historical context to this. I think there is a biological context. I think there is a biological context. I think there is a biological context. I think there's emotional there's all these there's emotional there's all these there's emotional there's all these different aspects of it that make it uh different aspects of it that make it uh different aspects of it that make it uh more difficult. But I'd love to hear more difficult. But I'd love to hear more difficult. But I'd love to hear what everybody else has to say as well. what everybody else has to say as well. what everybody else has to say as well. Yeah. I don't know. I'm still trying to Yeah. I don't know. I'm still trying to Yeah. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out some of it. But one of the figure out some of it. But one of the figure out some of it. But one of the things that's been interesting to me is things that's been interesting to me is things that's been interesting to me is how often I have been told now it's by how often I have been told now it's by how often I have been told now it's by friendly people on the internet. friendly people on the internet. friendly people on the internet. Friendly people that that I want Friendly people that that I want Friendly people that that I want something that I just don't want. Like something that I just don't want. Like something that I just don't want. Like there have been times where I've wanted there have been times where I've wanted there have been times where I've wanted to say guys if I wanted to be a pastor I to say guys if I wanted to be a pastor I to say guys if I wanted to be a pastor I would be like I would be I would have would be like I would be I would have would be like I would be I would have joined a tradition where I would have joined a tradition where I would have joined a tradition where I would have done that. Like you're not stopping me done that. Like you're not stopping me done that. Like you're not stopping me by yelling at me, right? Um, and what I by yelling at me, right? Um, and what I by yelling at me, right? Um, and what I want to be is I want to be a a sister in want to be is I want to be a a sister in want to be is I want to be a a sister in the church and I want to be a mother in the church and I want to be a mother in the church and I want to be a mother in the church. And I think if the church is the church. And I think if the church is the church. And I think if the church is the family of God, then we don't want the family of God, then we don't want the family of God, then we don't want the family of God to be motherless, the family of God to be motherless, the family of God to be motherless, right? And a mother is not a father and right? And a mother is not a father and right? And a mother is not a father and a sister is not a brother. Um and I a sister is not a brother. Um and I a sister is not a brother. Um and I think you know there I think sure power

think you know there I think sure power think you know there I think sure power is a part of it but I think also there is a part of it but I think also there is a part of it but I think also there is an atmosphere of so much fear around is an atmosphere of so much fear around is an atmosphere of so much fear around this conversation because everybody's this conversation because everybody's this conversation because everybody's read the headlines about pastors who read the headlines about pastors who read the headlines about pastors who have fallen you know who've gotten into have fallen you know who've gotten into have fallen you know who've gotten into an inappropriate relationship. Uh I've an inappropriate relationship. Uh I've an inappropriate relationship. Uh I've read those and uh I think that that can read those and uh I think that that can read those and uh I think that that can put us into uh defense mode all the put us into uh defense mode all the put us into uh defense mode all the time. It's like, you know what, the most time. It's like, you know what, the most time. It's like, you know what, the most important thing we can do is prevent important thing we can do is prevent important thing we can do is prevent that ever happening. And we only that ever happening. And we only that ever happening. And we only perceive fear on one side of the perceive fear on one side of the perceive fear on one side of the equation. And we don't have a healthy equation. And we don't have a healthy equation. And we don't have a healthy and good fear for what happens if we and good fear for what happens if we and good fear for what happens if we don't have partnerships at all because don't have partnerships at all because don't have partnerships at all because we were so afraid that this would we were so afraid that this would we were so afraid that this would happen. I actually think there's happen. I actually think there's happen. I actually think there's something here in the middle where we something here in the middle where we something here in the middle where we have a good and reverent respect for have a good and reverent respect for have a good and reverent respect for what could happen and we also have a what could happen and we also have a what could happen and we also have a good and reverent desire to see what good and reverent desire to see what good and reverent desire to see what should happen. Um and and if the church should happen. Um and and if the church should happen. Um and and if the church is the family of God, then I think like is the family of God, then I think like is the family of God, then I think like think about your family of origin. Well, think about your family of origin. Well, think about your family of origin. Well, maybe your family of origin was maybe your family of origin was maybe your family of origin was terrible. Think about what you wish that terrible. Think about what you wish that terrible. Think about what you wish that family had been like if it was terrible.

family had been like if it was terrible. family had been like if it was terrible. Think about the happiest interactions Think about the happiest interactions Think about the happiest interactions you've had with a sibling or with a you've had with a sibling or with a you've had with a sibling or with a parent. That's the church is supposed to parent. That's the church is supposed to parent. That's the church is supposed to be better than that. Um and yet what we be better than that. Um and yet what we be better than that. Um and yet what we often have is the men are over here and often have is the men are over here and often have is the men are over here and the women are over here and nary the the women are over here and nary the the women are over here and nary the twain shall meet. And I think it's twain shall meet. And I think it's twain shall meet. And I think it's robbing us of something. Yeah, I think robbing us of something. Yeah, I think robbing us of something. Yeah, I think that's right. And even the title of the that's right. And even the title of the that's right. And even the title of the session, you know, can can uh session, you know, can can uh session, you know, can can uh ministering in the church as men and ministering in the church as men and ministering in the church as men and women, it's it's a great way to talk women, it's it's a great way to talk women, it's it's a great way to talk about it. But even to phrase it the way about it. But even to phrase it the way about it. But even to phrase it the way you just did is is uh would be phrasing you just did is is uh would be phrasing you just did is is uh would be phrasing it as as brothers and sisters, right? it as as brothers and sisters, right? it as as brothers and sisters, right? The primary way that we tend to see each The primary way that we tend to see each The primary way that we tend to see each other is in a hypersexualized world, is other is in a hypersexualized world, is other is in a hypersexualized world, is in sexualized roles. And I think one of in sexualized roles. And I think one of in sexualized roles. And I think one of the things that the gospel invites us the things that the gospel invites us the things that the gospel invites us into isn't just to see each other in into isn't just to see each other in into isn't just to see each other in sexualized roles or gendered roles, sexualized roles or gendered roles, sexualized roles or gendered roles, though those matter. I'm not saying though those matter. I'm not saying though those matter. I'm not saying those don't exist. I'm saying to for one those don't exist. I'm saying to for one those don't exist. I'm saying to for one of our primary lenses, is to be the of our primary lenses, is to be the of our primary lenses, is to be the biblical lens of family is to see each biblical lens of family is to see each biblical lens of family is to see each other primarily as brothers and sisters. other primarily as brothers and sisters. other primarily as brothers and sisters. I told you at the beginning of this, one I told you at the beginning of this, one I told you at the beginning of this, one of the reasons I'm invested in this of the reasons I'm invested in this of the reasons I'm invested in this conversation certainly is because I conversation certainly is because I conversation certainly is because I think the Bible teaches this. I think think the Bible teaches this. I think think the Bible teaches this. I think this is the biblical vision of of how it this is the biblical vision of of how it this is the biblical vision of of how it looks for men and women, brothers and looks for men and women, brothers and looks for men and women, brothers and sisters, to thrive together in the life sisters, to thrive together in the life sisters, to thrive together in the life of the church. But in addition to that, of the church. But in addition to that, of the church. But in addition to that, like I said, I'm invested in this like I said, I'm invested in this like I said, I'm invested in this because of my own personal story. I because of my own personal story. I because of my own personal story. I shared with you a moment ago that, you shared with you a moment ago that, you shared with you a moment ago that, you know, I grew up in a a loving family know, I grew up in a a loving family know, I grew up in a a loving family though. My parents got divorced, single though. My parents got divorced, single though. My parents got divorced, single mom, major league baseball. That was the mom, major league baseball. That was the mom, major league baseball. That was the boys club. Imagine working in a boys boys club. Imagine working in a boys boys club. Imagine working in a boys club in the '9s. I mean, it was when club in the '9s. I mean, it was when club in the '9s. I mean, it was when baseball was kind of the steroid era. It baseball was kind of the steroid era. It baseball was kind of the steroid era. It was very hard for her to kind of make was very hard for her to kind of make was very hard for her to kind of make her way into that space and be a leader.

her way into that space and be a leader. her way into that space and be a leader. But in addition to that, I grew up as an But in addition to that, I grew up as an But in addition to that, I grew up as an only child and there was everyone who only child and there was everyone who only child and there was everyone who knows me is like, "Oh, no." Yeah. He likes to do jump scares. no." Yeah. He likes to do jump scares. Lots of jump scares. If you're my Lots of jump scares. If you're my Lots of jump scares. If you're my friend, if you're my friend, though. I'm friend, if you're my friend, though. I'm friend, if you're my friend, though. I'm like, that's cuz you didn't have a like, that's cuz you didn't have a like, that's cuz you didn't have a sibling to beat that out of you. That's sibling to beat that out of you. That's sibling to beat that out of you. That's exactly right. So, I'm depending upon exactly right. So, I'm depending upon exactly right. So, I'm depending upon you to do it. And that's the de that's you to do it. And that's the de that's you to do it. And that's the de that's the relationship we've developed. But the relationship we've developed. But the relationship we've developed. But but in all seriousness, we we joke about but in all seriousness, we we joke about but in all seriousness, we we joke about it is the Lord saved me not just to it is the Lord saved me not just to it is the Lord saved me not just to himself, but into a family, both himself, but into a family, both himself, but into a family, both invisible universal church but also a invisible universal church but also a invisible universal church but also a visible one. And so when Jen and I met visible one. And so when Jen and I met visible one. And so when Jen and I met each other and it wasn't just Jen, we each other and it wasn't just Jen, we each other and it wasn't just Jen, we have brothers and sisters that we do have brothers and sisters that we do have brothers and sisters that we do ministry with, but the relationship that ministry with, but the relationship that ministry with, but the relationship that she and I have developed is she quite she and I have developed is she quite she and I have developed is she quite literally in I think of Jen Wilin as my literally in I think of Jen Wilin as my literally in I think of Jen Wilin as my sister. And the kind of relationship we sister. And the kind of relationship we sister. And the kind of relationship we have is a familial type relationship have is a familial type relationship have is a familial type relationship that the Lord's built between us and I that the Lord's built between us and I that the Lord's built between us and I we kind of are asking the question uh we kind of are asking the question uh we kind of are asking the question uh you know can it happen? I I would love you know can it happen? I I would love you know can it happen? I I would love to offer it must like this isn't and to offer it must like this isn't and to offer it must like this isn't and it's not like a begrudging necessity. it's not like a begrudging necessity. it's not like a begrudging necessity. It's a joyful necessity that we get to It's a joyful necessity that we get to It's a joyful necessity that we get to be each other's brothers and sisters.

be each other's brothers and sisters. be each other's brothers and sisters. And one of the things that like uh you And one of the things that like uh you And one of the things that like uh you know, Jen and I have had this know, Jen and I have had this know, Jen and I have had this conversation several times of like how conversation several times of like how conversation several times of like how many theology conversations do you think many theology conversations do you think many theology conversations do you think you and I have had, Jen? I mean, you and I have had, Jen? I mean, you and I have had, Jen? I mean, thousands. Thousands. And we've probably thousands. Thousands. And we've probably thousands. Thousands. And we've probably talked about this one a dozen times talked about this one a dozen times talked about this one a dozen times because Jen and I share something far because Jen and I share something far because Jen and I share something far more in common and it's Bible literacy more in common and it's Bible literacy more in common and it's Bible literacy and theological formation and Christian and theological formation and Christian and theological formation and Christian education in the church and leading education in the church and leading education in the church and leading people. I mean, it's just so one of the people. I mean, it's just so one of the people. I mean, it's just so one of the things that we've had the opportunity to things that we've had the opportunity to things that we've had the opportunity to develop and I now develop with other men develop and I now develop with other men develop and I now develop with other men and women on my staff is just a familial and women on my staff is just a familial and women on my staff is just a familial jovial relationship that wants to keep jovial relationship that wants to keep jovial relationship that wants to keep Jesus at the center that does ministry Jesus at the center that does ministry Jesus at the center that does ministry together that keeps our sameness in together that keeps our sameness in together that keeps our sameness in mind, our distinctions in mind that mind, our distinctions in mind that mind, our distinctions in mind that really treats this like a family. Like I really treats this like a family. Like I really treats this like a family. Like I think of Jen as my sister and for me think of Jen as my sister and for me think of Jen as my sister and for me that isn't just a so therefore how do that isn't just a so therefore how do that isn't just a so therefore how do you guys work together in the church? you guys work together in the church? you guys work together in the church? It's she's my friend. She's my It's she's my friend. She's my It's she's my friend. She's my colleague. Okay. Well, listen, that's colleague. Okay. Well, listen, that's colleague. Okay. Well, listen, that's all Kumbaya and great. Okay, but um so all Kumbaya and great. Okay, but um so all Kumbaya and great. Okay, but um so it's great. Me and Vanessa actually are it's great. Me and Vanessa actually are it's great. Me and Vanessa actually are in New York now. So, as a New Yorker, I in New York now. So, as a New Yorker, I in New York now. So, as a New Yorker, I feel like I need to say this. Um when it feel like I need to say this. Um when it feel like I need to say this. Um when it comes to like fear, Jen, I want to key comes to like fear, Jen, I want to key comes to like fear, Jen, I want to key in on what you said. You said there's in on what you said. You said there's in on what you said. You said there's fear. Is it the men that are afraid? Is fear. Is it the men that are afraid? Is fear. Is it the men that are afraid? Is it the women that are afraid? I just it the women that are afraid? I just it the women that are afraid? I just want to just get a little more clarity want to just get a little more clarity want to just get a little more clarity on that. Yes. I mean, I think it can be on that. Yes. I mean, I think it can be on that. Yes. I mean, I think it can be both depending on the environment, but both depending on the environment, but both depending on the environment, but you've got I think you've got men who you've got I think you've got men who you've got I think you've got men who are not afraid they will accidentally are not afraid they will accidentally are not afraid they will accidentally have an affair. you know, like I'm going have an affair. you know, like I'm going have an affair. you know, like I'm going to have a meeting alone with a woman and to have a meeting alone with a woman and to have a meeting alone with a woman and we're going to have an affair. No, I we're going to have an affair. No, I we're going to have an affair. No, I don't think anybody's thinking that. I don't think anybody's thinking that. I don't think anybody's thinking that. I think what they're thinking is I can't think what they're thinking is I can't think what they're thinking is I can't risk even the appearance of impropriy risk even the appearance of impropriy risk even the appearance of impropriy and therefore which and I'm not saying and therefore which and I'm not saying and therefore which and I'm not saying there's nothing to that, right? But there's nothing to that, right? But there's nothing to that, right? But sometimes we've given so much freight to

sometimes we've given so much freight to sometimes we've given so much freight to that idea that it is that idea that it is that idea that it is sabotaging healthy relationship because sabotaging healthy relationship because sabotaging healthy relationship because what it does is it assigns a risk what it does is it assigns a risk what it does is it assigns a risk category to male female relationships category to male female relationships category to male female relationships that it doesn't assign to any it's a that it doesn't assign to any it's a that it doesn't assign to any it's a special category of risk. That's right. special category of risk. That's right. special category of risk. That's right. And and one of the things that I think And and one of the things that I think And and one of the things that I think has helped me to think differently about has helped me to think differently about has helped me to think differently about this is to realize that every this is to realize that every this is to realize that every relationship bears risk. every single relationship bears risk. every single relationship bears risk. every single relationship. If Vanessa and I went to relationship. If Vanessa and I went to relationship. If Vanessa and I went to coffee and Vanessa was weird or coffee and Vanessa was weird or coffee and Vanessa was weird or manipulative, I would back away. I would manipulative, I would back away. I would manipulative, I would back away. I would not move toward. But if Vanessa and I go not move toward. But if Vanessa and I go not move toward. But if Vanessa and I go to coffee and she's delightful, which to coffee and she's delightful, which to coffee and she's delightful, which would be the case, PS, then I'm going to would be the case, PS, then I'm going to would be the case, PS, then I'm going to move toward because there we're always move toward because there we're always move toward because there we're always testing the next trust boundary in any testing the next trust boundary in any testing the next trust boundary in any relationship. Can this relationship bear relationship. Can this relationship bear relationship. Can this relationship bear more trust or less trust? Every more trust or less trust? Every more trust or less trust? Every relationship is that way. And so, um, it relationship is that way. And so, um, it relationship is that way. And so, um, it doesn't mean that there's nothing to be doesn't mean that there's nothing to be doesn't mean that there's nothing to be said about, um, a particular dynamic said about, um, a particular dynamic said about, um, a particular dynamic between men and women. But when we begin between men and women. But when we begin between men and women. But when we begin to realize that there's no such thing as to realize that there's no such thing as to realize that there's no such thing as a risk-free relationship, then when I a risk-free relationship, then when I a risk-free relationship, then when I meet JT, the exact same process plays meet JT, the exact same process plays meet JT, the exact same process plays out. I step forward and trust. If he's out. I step forward and trust. If he's out. I step forward and trust. If he's weird, what do I do? I step back. If weird, what do I do? I step back. If weird, what do I do? I step back. If he's not weird, then I say this he's not weird, then I say this he's not weird, then I say this relationship can bear more trust.

relationship can bear more trust. relationship can bear more trust. friendships when we acknowledge that friendships when we acknowledge that friendships when we acknowledge that they can happen between men and women. they can happen between men and women. they can happen between men and women. And then when we realize that it's And then when we realize that it's And then when we realize that it's actually good to have those because it actually good to have those because it actually good to have those because it means we can't objectify one another means we can't objectify one another means we can't objectify one another anymore because we understand that there anymore because we understand that there anymore because we understand that there are things that we share that are as are things that we share that are as are things that we share that are as important as the things that divide us important as the things that divide us important as the things that divide us uh or that make us distinct from each uh or that make us distinct from each uh or that make us distinct from each other. Um then the family of God grows other. Um then the family of God grows other. Um then the family of God grows in health because we have trust not just in health because we have trust not just in health because we have trust not just women among women or men among men but women among women or men among men but women among women or men among men but across those lines as well. across those lines as well. across those lines as well. I love that. I love that. That's that's I love that. I love that. That's that's I love that. I love that. That's that's so insightful and so helpful. It's not so insightful and so helpful. It's not so insightful and so helpful. It's not just men when women relationships we're just men when women relationships we're just men when women relationships we're talking about there are some um there talking about there are some um there talking about there are some um there are some qualities to relationships in are some qualities to relationships in are some qualities to relationships in general um that uh are helpful to think general um that uh are helpful to think general um that uh are helpful to think about and that this isn't just some about and that this isn't just some about and that this isn't just some major special category. It's how we major special category. It's how we major special category. It's how we think about relationships. So, let me think about relationships. So, let me think about relationships. So, let me ask this. Um, you know, Michael and JT, ask this. Um, you know, Michael and JT, ask this. Um, you know, Michael and JT, you guys are both pastors, which means you guys are both pastors, which means you guys are both pastors, which means that you do a lot of the setting the that you do a lot of the setting the that you do a lot of the setting the tone for the culture of your church and tone for the culture of your church and tone for the culture of your church and how of the church where you get to how of the church where you get to how of the church where you get to serve. Let me say it that way. Uh, it's serve. Let me say it that way. Uh, it's serve. Let me say it that way. Uh, it's Christ Church. So, you set the tone. You Christ Church. So, you set the tone. You Christ Church. So, you set the tone. You set a lot of the tone. Um, and a lot of set a lot of the tone. Um, and a lot of set a lot of the tone. Um, and a lot of the culture uh is based on the tone that the culture uh is based on the tone that the culture uh is based on the tone that you set. How do you intentionally create you set. How do you intentionally create you set. How do you intentionally create the type of spaces where we think about the type of spaces where we think about the type of spaces where we think about church as family? How how are you doing church as family? How how are you doing church as family? How how are you doing that? Or are there ways to do that that? Or are there ways to do that that? Or are there ways to do that intentionally?

intentionally? intentionally? They both looked at me, so I'll jump in. They both looked at me, so I'll jump in. They both looked at me, so I'll jump in. Uh yeah, I think um I mean, so I have Uh yeah, I think um I mean, so I have Uh yeah, I think um I mean, so I have the honor of pastoring a church in the honor of pastoring a church in the honor of pastoring a church in outside of Denver, Colorado. It's called outside of Denver, Colorado. It's called outside of Denver, Colorado. It's called Storyline Church, and Storyline would be Storyline Church, and Storyline would be Storyline Church, and Storyline would be aligned with the Gospel Coalition in aligned with the Gospel Coalition in aligned with the Gospel Coalition in virtually every way. We're a broadly virtually every way. We're a broadly virtually every way. We're a broadly reformed evangelical. We happen to be reformed evangelical. We happen to be reformed evangelical. We happen to be Baptist church and we're complimentarian Baptist church and we're complimentarian Baptist church and we're complimentarian and card caring. I've got the you know and card caring. I've got the you know and card caring. I've got the you know uh the coffee mug the coffee mug to uh the coffee mug the coffee mug to uh the coffee mug the coffee mug to prove it. Uh which means at our church prove it. Uh which means at our church prove it. Uh which means at our church that means that only qualified males that means that only qualified males that means that only qualified males serve in the office of elder. Uh women serve in the office of elder. Uh women serve in the office of elder. Uh women won't preach in life for our church. won't preach in life for our church. won't preach in life for our church. They won't serve as elders in the life They won't serve as elders in the life They won't serve as elders in the life of their church. Uh however uh and I of their church. Uh however uh and I of their church. Uh however uh and I don't mean however as a means to say don't mean however as a means to say don't mean however as a means to say therefore we're not. However, I want to therefore we're not. However, I want to therefore we're not. However, I want to find ways to value the contribution of find ways to value the contribution of find ways to value the contribution of all people in the life of our church. all people in the life of our church. all people in the life of our church. Not just the elders but both men and Not just the elders but both men and Not just the elders but both men and women who are serving in the life of the women who are serving in the life of the women who are serving in the life of the church. And so here's just maybe a few church. And so here's just maybe a few church. And so here's just maybe a few practical tips that I think can help set practical tips that I think can help set practical tips that I think can help set the culture. Uh I'll give three. We the culture. Uh I'll give three. We the culture. Uh I'll give three. We preach about our understanding of of preach about our understanding of of preach about our understanding of of what it means to be an image bearer. I I what it means to be an image bearer. I I what it means to be an image bearer. I I was on a podcast earlier today and was was on a podcast earlier today and was was on a podcast earlier today and was asked the question uh what's going to be asked the question uh what's going to be asked the question uh what's going to be one of the most important issues that one of the most important issues that one of the most important issues that evangelicals are addressing in the next evangelicals are addressing in the next evangelicals are addressing in the next generation. And I believe it's the generation. And I believe it's the generation. And I believe it's the doctrine of anthropology. Whether we're doctrine of anthropology. Whether we're doctrine of anthropology. Whether we're talking about racial conversations, talking about racial conversations, talking about racial conversations, gender conversation, conversations gender conversation, conversations gender conversation, conversations around sexuality, artificial around sexuality, artificial around sexuality, artificial intelligence, I think one of the great intelligence, I think one of the great intelligence, I think one of the great opportunities that we have is to give opportunities that we have is to give opportunities that we have is to give people a biblical vision of what it people a biblical vision of what it people a biblical vision of what it means to be human. And so, uh, uh, means to be human. And so, uh, uh, means to be human. And so, uh, uh, pastors, I would encourage you to preach pastors, I would encourage you to preach pastors, I would encourage you to preach about anthropology, uh, develop a a about anthropology, uh, develop a a about anthropology, uh, develop a a biblical anthropology in the life of biblical anthropology in the life of biblical anthropology in the life of your people, but also just getting real your people, but also just getting real your people, but also just getting real practical in terms of what it means to practical in terms of what it means to practical in terms of what it means to be on staff at Storyline. And by the be on staff at Storyline. And by the be on staff at Storyline. And by the way, none of us up here have this

way, none of us up here have this way, none of us up here have this completely figured out in terms of completely figured out in terms of completely figured out in terms of nailed. I was even walking this way with nailed. I was even walking this way with nailed. I was even walking this way with a staff member of mine. I was like, a staff member of mine. I was like, a staff member of mine. I was like, we're doing this, okay? right? You know, we're doing this, okay? right? You know, we're doing this, okay? right? You know, uh because we all have areas to grow and uh because we all have areas to grow and uh because we all have areas to grow and develop and learn, but I would say two develop and learn, but I would say two develop and learn, but I would say two things in particular that I would things in particular that I would things in particular that I would encourage men and women in this room to encourage men and women in this room to encourage men and women in this room to to consider. And the first is find a to consider. And the first is find a to consider. And the first is find a culture of celebration and celebrating culture of celebration and celebrating culture of celebration and celebrating the gifts of the men and women in the the gifts of the men and women in the the gifts of the men and women in the life of your of your church. And so, life of your of your church. And so, life of your of your church. And so, something that we just try to do something that we just try to do something that we just try to do regularly uh at Storyline is celebrate regularly uh at Storyline is celebrate regularly uh at Storyline is celebrate the contributions of all of our staff the contributions of all of our staff the contributions of all of our staff members, not just the contributions of members, not just the contributions of members, not just the contributions of our elders or my contributions to our elders or my contributions to our elders or my contributions to teaching. I'm on a Slack thread right teaching. I'm on a Slack thread right teaching. I'm on a Slack thread right now. We had six services for Easter over now. We had six services for Easter over now. We had six services for Easter over the last couple days and it is every the last couple days and it is every the last couple days and it is every single staff member getting on there single staff member getting on there single staff member getting on there saying, "You guys did such a great job saying, "You guys did such a great job saying, "You guys did such a great job with the kids volunteers and the with the kids volunteers and the with the kids volunteers and the hospitality team was great and man, you hospitality team was great and man, you hospitality team was great and man, you guys just crushed it with sharing the guys just crushed it with sharing the guys just crushed it with sharing the gospel with that couple that was brand gospel with that couple that was brand gospel with that couple that was brand new." And so, uh, celebrating ministry new." And so, uh, celebrating ministry new." And so, uh, celebrating ministry contributions across ministry lines, I contributions across ministry lines, I contributions across ministry lines, I think, is a great way to to begin think, is a great way to to begin think, is a great way to to begin developing a healthy complimentarian developing a healthy complimentarian developing a healthy complimentarian culture where we're not only valuing the culture where we're not only valuing the culture where we're not only valuing the preaching of God's word from the pulpit, preaching of God's word from the pulpit, preaching of God's word from the pulpit, but we're valuing the ministry but we're valuing the ministry but we're valuing the ministry contribution of everybody. That's not contribution of everybody. That's not contribution of everybody. That's not just staff members, by the way. That's just staff members, by the way. That's just staff members, by the way. That's leaders and volunteers and and ministry leaders and volunteers and and ministry leaders and volunteers and and ministry contributors. And I also just think one contributors. And I also just think one contributors. And I also just think one of the things that I think Jen hates of the things that I think Jen hates of the things that I think Jen hates that I use this phrase, so tell me if that I use this phrase, so tell me if that I use this phrase, so tell me if you do. But a phrase that I love is the you do. But a phrase that I love is the you do. But a phrase that I love is the best idea wins. And I mean that. See, best idea wins. And I mean that. See, best idea wins. And I mean that. See, she hates it. Uh I just love being in she hates it. Uh I just love being in she hates it. Uh I just love being in meetings and rooms and environments meetings and rooms and environments meetings and rooms and environments where I know that there's power dynamics where I know that there's power dynamics where I know that there's power dynamics and authority and there's there's and authority and there's there's and authority and there's there's challenges to that. But I also just love challenges to that. But I also just love challenges to that. But I also just love engaging in ideas. So it's very often engaging in ideas. So it's very often engaging in ideas. So it's very often that we'll be sitting in a staff meeting that we'll be sitting in a staff meeting that we'll be sitting in a staff meeting and you know, Jess, our kids leader, and you know, Jess, our kids leader, and you know, Jess, our kids leader, will be like, "Jess, what do you think will be like, "Jess, what do you think will be like, "Jess, what do you think about this?" and Lindsay, what do you about this?" and Lindsay, what do you about this?" and Lindsay, what do you think about that? Hey, Grant, what do

think about that? Hey, Grant, what do think about that? Hey, Grant, what do you think about this? And so, I just you think about this? And so, I just you think about this? And so, I just think one of the ways that you can think one of the ways that you can think one of the ways that you can develop a healthy I mean, we're really develop a healthy I mean, we're really develop a healthy I mean, we're really going back to this family dynamic a lot. going back to this family dynamic a lot. going back to this family dynamic a lot. This is what you would do in a family. This is what you would do in a family. This is what you would do in a family. If you're the father or the mother of a If you're the father or the mother of a If you're the father or the mother of a family, you're celebrating the family, you're celebrating the family, you're celebrating the contribution of your kids. You're contribution of your kids. You're contribution of your kids. You're inviting them to input into the healthy inviting them to input into the healthy inviting them to input into the healthy uh into the healthy culture of your uh into the healthy culture of your uh into the healthy culture of your family. And so find ways to celebrate family. And so find ways to celebrate family. And so find ways to celebrate the contributions of all of your team the contributions of all of your team the contributions of all of your team members and find ways to ask them to members and find ways to ask them to members and find ways to ask them to contribute like find ways for them to contribute like find ways for them to contribute like find ways for them to meaningfully uh give healthy ministry meaningfully uh give healthy ministry meaningfully uh give healthy ministry inputs into the life of your church. inputs into the life of your church. inputs into the life of your church. Yeah, I'll just add just two quick Yeah, I'll just add just two quick Yeah, I'll just add just two quick things then um to that as well. One is I things then um to that as well. One is I things then um to that as well. One is I really I know Ephesians 5 talking about really I know Ephesians 5 talking about really I know Ephesians 5 talking about submission and there's there's you know submission and there's there's you know submission and there's there's you know men and women submitting to each other. men and women submitting to each other. men and women submitting to each other. I know that's in the in the marriage I know that's in the in the marriage I know that's in the in the marriage context, but I think there's actually context, but I think there's actually context, but I think there's actually still a lot of paradigms that you can still a lot of paradigms that you can still a lot of paradigms that you can map on in inside the church. And that is map on in inside the church. And that is map on in inside the church. And that is if we're I'm going back to this again, if we're I'm going back to this again, if we're I'm going back to this again, sorry for Genesis 2. If we're equal, but sorry for Genesis 2. If we're equal, but sorry for Genesis 2. If we're equal, but different, then I think there's different, then I think there's different, then I think there's something along as far as submission, something along as far as submission, something along as far as submission, we're submitting to each other, says we're submitting to each other, says we're submitting to each other, says submit to one another. Um, but the way submit to one another. Um, but the way submit to one another. Um, but the way we submit is actually in different ways. we submit is actually in different ways. we submit is actually in different ways. And so I think it's important just to to And so I think it's important just to to And so I think it's important just to to name and say particularly in in churches name and say particularly in in churches name and say particularly in in churches that are complimentarian. There is a that are complimentarian. There is a that are complimentarian. There is a trust and a submission that that uh um trust and a submission that that uh um trust and a submission that that uh um uh this gets back to your to the uh the uh this gets back to your to the uh the uh this gets back to your to the uh the trust stuff of like how to how to trust trust stuff of like how to how to trust trust stuff of like how to how to trust each other. There's a trust that women each other. There's a trust that women each other. There's a trust that women are intowing saying, "Hey, I'm trusting are intowing saying, "Hey, I'm trusting are intowing saying, "Hey, I'm trusting you as leader to to go with this you as leader to to go with this you as leader to to go with this church." But then there's also a mutual church." But then there's also a mutual church." But then there's also a mutual trust of saying um coming alongside trust of saying um coming alongside trust of saying um coming alongside saying, "I want your I want to hear your saying, "I want your I want to hear your saying, "I want your I want to hear your voice. we need to put you in situations voice. we need to put you in situations voice. we need to put you in situations and spaces where we can actually not be and spaces where we can actually not be and spaces where we can actually not be blind to 50% of our congregation or more

blind to 50% of our congregation or more blind to 50% of our congregation or more because of uh just pure percentages. So because of uh just pure percentages. So because of uh just pure percentages. So I think there's a level of how do we I think there's a level of how do we I think there's a level of how do we actually do mutual submission to each actually do mutual submission to each actually do mutual submission to each other that are going to that's going to other that are going to that's going to other that are going to that's going to look differently but then um that's look differently but then um that's look differently but then um that's based in this mutual trust and and that based in this mutual trust and and that based in this mutual trust and and that leads to the second thing which is leads to the second thing which is leads to the second thing which is really just bas basic 101 um really just bas basic 101 um really just bas basic 101 um relationship dynamics that if you're relationship dynamics that if you're relationship dynamics that if you're going to be able to handle trust because going to be able to handle trust because going to be able to handle trust because part of trust problems is there's things part of trust problems is there's things part of trust problems is there's things you said don't be weird if they end up you said don't be weird if they end up you said don't be weird if they end up being weird we're going to be weird. being weird we're going to be weird. being weird we're going to be weird. We're all going to be weird with each We're all going to be weird with each We're all going to be weird with each other. All of you are going to be weird other. All of you are going to be weird other. All of you are going to be weird at some point because uh just you hang at some point because uh just you hang at some point because uh just you hang out with with each with each other long out with with each with each other long out with with each with each other long enough and there's going to be uh hurt enough and there's going to be uh hurt enough and there's going to be uh hurt lives and brokenness and you're I'm lives and brokenness and you're I'm lives and brokenness and you're I'm going to say something the wrong way. going to say something the wrong way. going to say something the wrong way. Vanessa and I are on the same staff Vanessa and I are on the same staff Vanessa and I are on the same staff together. So there's a lot of trust that together. So there's a lot of trust that together. So there's a lot of trust that has to happen saying I'm sorry I messed has to happen saying I'm sorry I messed has to happen saying I'm sorry I messed that up. Can we let's try this again and that up. Can we let's try this again and that up. Can we let's try this again and come back and do it again. Part of that come back and do it again. Part of that come back and do it again. Part of that having enough emotional wealth of I feel having enough emotional wealth of I feel having enough emotional wealth of I feel loved and taken care of that I don't loved and taken care of that I don't loved and taken care of that I don't have to get back from you what you took have to get back from you what you took have to get back from you what you took when you messed up in that moment. But when you messed up in that moment. But when you messed up in that moment. But then there's also this this ability to then there's also this this ability to then there's also this this ability to be able to um be humble enough that be able to um be humble enough that be able to um be humble enough that maybe when that person messed up, I maybe when that person messed up, I maybe when that person messed up, I wouldn't have messed up like they messed wouldn't have messed up like they messed wouldn't have messed up like they messed up, but I mess up. And so I I I create up, but I mess up. And so I I I create up, but I mess up. And so I I I create the space of well, it's okay. We're all the space of well, it's okay. We're all the space of well, it's okay. We're all in this together and then coming back in this together and then coming back in this together and then coming back and do it all over again. I think the and do it all over again. I think the and do it all over again. I think the the hard part happens is like you get the hard part happens is like you get the hard part happens is like you get one shot and you're out versus the I one shot and you're out versus the I one shot and you're out versus the I like the familiar relational aspect of like the familiar relational aspect of like the familiar relational aspect of of we're in this together. Well, and I of we're in this together. Well, and I of we're in this together. Well, and I think something you're hitting on, which think something you're hitting on, which think something you're hitting on, which I know is something that JT um extended I know is something that JT um extended I know is something that JT um extended to me was when he says we're friends, to me was when he says we're friends, to me was when he says we're friends, that means we actually know each other, that means we actually know each other, that means we actually know each other, right? And um tr think about right now, right? And um tr think about right now, right? And um tr think about right now, get in your head, who is the person that get in your head, who is the person that get in your head, who is the person that you trust the most? Like, who is that you trust the most? Like, who is that you trust the most? Like, who is that person? Get that in your head. Now, how

person? Get that in your head. Now, how person? Get that in your head. Now, how well do you know that person? well do you know that person? well do you know that person? My guess is you know them really well. My guess is you know them really well. My guess is you know them really well. The reason you trust them is because The reason you trust them is because The reason you trust them is because you've had a lot of time or a lot of you've had a lot of time or a lot of you've had a lot of time or a lot of opportunity to know them. You could opportunity to know them. You could opportunity to know them. You could probably tell me when their birthday is. probably tell me when their birthday is. probably tell me when their birthday is. You could probably tell me things about You could probably tell me things about You could probably tell me things about their family members, right? Maybe it is their family members, right? Maybe it is their family members, right? Maybe it is one of your family members. And so to one of your family members. And so to one of your family members. And so to kind of paint a picture of why this can kind of paint a picture of why this can kind of paint a picture of why this can be so hard in the local church. If it is be so hard in the local church. If it is be so hard in the local church. If it is forbidden for me to be known by the men forbidden for me to be known by the men forbidden for me to be known by the men on staff or in the congregation, then on staff or in the congregation, then on staff or in the congregation, then guess what? I will never guess what? I will never guess what? I will never be trusted. I will never be trusted. And be trusted. I will never be trusted. And be trusted. I will never be trusted. And the And that actually makes a ton of the And that actually makes a ton of the And that actually makes a ton of sense. You shouldn't trust someone sense. You shouldn't trust someone sense. You shouldn't trust someone completely that you don't know very completely that you don't know very completely that you don't know very well. Um but what we started to see was well. Um but what we started to see was well. Um but what we started to see was when we began to embrace a family when we began to embrace a family when we began to embrace a family dynamic in our um church staff was that dynamic in our um church staff was that dynamic in our um church staff was that it wasn't just okay, I'm going to trust it wasn't just okay, I'm going to trust it wasn't just okay, I'm going to trust you. It was no, I need to know you. I you. It was no, I need to know you. I you. It was no, I need to know you. I need to actually know you. um that that need to actually know you. um that that need to actually know you. um that that was honestly the first act of trust was was honestly the first act of trust was was honestly the first act of trust was was just to just to know each other. And was just to just to know each other. And was just to just to know each other. And in many situations um women are just not in many situations um women are just not in many situations um women are just not known. And so when it comes time for known. And so when it comes time for known. And so when it comes time for decisions to be made, of course, you're decisions to be made, of course, you're decisions to be made, of course, you're going to um give more credence to the going to um give more credence to the going to um give more credence to the opinion of someone who you know and opinion of someone who you know and opinion of someone who you know and trust than someone that you don't know trust than someone that you don't know trust than someone that you don't know at all. So that's why I think this can at all. So that's why I think this can at all. So that's why I think this can get there's a level of vulnerability get there's a level of vulnerability get there's a level of vulnerability that takes to to put yourself in the that takes to to put yourself in the that takes to to put yourself in the positions because if you're going to be positions because if you're going to be positions because if you're going to be vulnerable that means you can be hurt vulnerable that means you can be hurt vulnerable that means you can be hurt which means that you can be which means that you can be which means that you can be misunderstood which goes back to your

misunderstood which goes back to your misunderstood which goes back to your original point which is a lot of times original point which is a lot of times original point which is a lot of times to protect ourselves we don't put to protect ourselves we don't put to protect ourselves we don't put ourselves in those positions where we ourselves in those positions where we ourselves in those positions where we can actually be hurt because what if she can actually be hurt because what if she can actually be hurt because what if she um says you know thinks I did something um says you know thinks I did something um says you know thinks I did something the wrong way what if he takes my the wrong way what if he takes my the wrong way what if he takes my actions in the wrong way and I think actions in the wrong way and I think actions in the wrong way and I think that's where we're we're stuck cuz we to that's where we're we're stuck cuz we to that's where we're we're stuck cuz we to be known you have to have vulnerability be known you have to have vulnerability be known you have to have vulnerability to have vulnerability you have to have to have vulnerability you have to have to have vulnerability you have to have trust And how do you earn that? And how trust And how do you earn that? And how trust And how do you earn that? And how do you get that? I don't know the right do you get that? I don't know the right do you get that? I don't know the right answer, but I think that that's you put answer, but I think that that's you put answer, but I think that that's you put your finger right on it, Jen. I think your finger right on it, Jen. I think your finger right on it, Jen. I think that's it. That's so good. Um, with that's it. That's so good. Um, with that's it. That's so good. Um, with regard to creating culture as pastors, regard to creating culture as pastors, regard to creating culture as pastors, you guys are leaders and so you have the you guys are leaders and so you have the you guys are leaders and so you have the opportunity to kind of set some of that opportunity to kind of set some of that opportunity to kind of set some of that direction that we're talking about with direction that we're talking about with direction that we're talking about with regard to creating familial spaces. Um, regard to creating familial spaces. Um, regard to creating familial spaces. Um, but Jan, as women in the church and but Jan, as women in the church and but Jan, as women in the church and maybe as non-pastors, maybe as non-pastors, maybe as non-pastors, um, maybe there's no formal power. Uh, um, maybe there's no formal power. Uh, um, maybe there's no formal power. Uh, so there's a different dynamic there. so there's a different dynamic there. so there's a different dynamic there. So, how does it look for someone who is So, how does it look for someone who is So, how does it look for someone who is a woman or a non-pastor to try to help a woman or a non-pastor to try to help a woman or a non-pastor to try to help set culture or to to affect culture um set culture or to to affect culture um set culture or to to affect culture um in a way that creates that familial in a way that creates that familial in a way that creates that familial um aspect? Well, anytime the word power um aspect? Well, anytime the word power um aspect? Well, anytime the word power gets introduced into the conversation, I gets introduced into the conversation, I gets introduced into the conversation, I get a little twitchy because there is a get a little twitchy because there is a get a little twitchy because there is a there is a narrative running through there is a narrative running through there is a narrative running through some of this that that's really what some of this that that's really what some of this that that's really what women want in this conversation is we women want in this conversation is we women want in this conversation is we want power. Mhm. Um, and you know, it's want power. Mhm. Um, and you know, it's want power. Mhm. Um, and you know, it's uh usucurppation. That's what we're here uh usucurppation. That's what we're here uh usucurppation. That's what we're here to do. Anyone who uh any any woman who to do. Anyone who uh any any woman who to do. Anyone who uh any any woman who perceives that um her role in the perceives that um her role in the perceives that um her role in the priesthood of all believers might priesthood of all believers might priesthood of all believers might involve working at a church or doing involve working at a church or doing involve working at a church or doing something, you know, uh on a church something, you know, uh on a church something, you know, uh on a church staff, it there can be a low-level

staff, it there can be a low-level staff, it there can be a low-level suspicion that this is just about power suspicion that this is just about power suspicion that this is just about power brokering, right? Um again, families brokering, right? Um again, families brokering, right? Um again, families aren't power brokering with one another. aren't power brokering with one another. aren't power brokering with one another. Families desire relationship with each Families desire relationship with each Families desire relationship with each other. It doesn't mean that there aren't other. It doesn't mean that there aren't other. It doesn't mean that there aren't different roles within the family that different roles within the family that different roles within the family that have power implications to them, but it have power implications to them, but it have power implications to them, but it means that the first foot that you step means that the first foot that you step means that the first foot that you step forward on is to love your neighbor as forward on is to love your neighbor as forward on is to love your neighbor as you love yourself. And that's a very you love yourself. And that's a very you love yourself. And that's a very different way of thinking about things. different way of thinking about things. different way of thinking about things. And um I do think that for women who um And um I do think that for women who um And um I do think that for women who um who perceive that their ability to um who perceive that their ability to um who perceive that their ability to um take their place in the priesthood of take their place in the priesthood of take their place in the priesthood of all believers in ways that are all believers in ways that are all believers in ways that are completely appropriate to our completely appropriate to our completely appropriate to our theological convictions. Uh it will take theological convictions. Uh it will take theological convictions. Uh it will take a little bit of courage. You will need a little bit of courage. You will need a little bit of courage. You will need to um you will need to extend trust to to um you will need to extend trust to to um you will need to extend trust to someone before it might be extended to someone before it might be extended to someone before it might be extended to you. You'll have to be willing to u meet you. You'll have to be willing to u meet you. You'll have to be willing to u meet with rejection or to be with rejection or to be with rejection or to be misunderstood. And um it can be costly. misunderstood. And um it can be costly. misunderstood. And um it can be costly. It can be very costly. I I have a long It can be very costly. I I have a long It can be very costly. I I have a long sad list of of stories from women who sad list of of stories from women who sad list of of stories from women who just tried to show up and were perceived just tried to show up and were perceived just tried to show up and were perceived to either want to take power or take a to either want to take power or take a to either want to take power or take a man's good name um or just become a man's good name um or just become a man's good name um or just become a burden on resources. Um and and so um it burden on resources. Um and and so um it burden on resources. Um and and so um it it is an act of courage to to keep it is an act of courage to to keep it is an act of courage to to keep putting yourself out there. And I think putting yourself out there. And I think putting yourself out there. And I think that in order to be I have always that in order to be I have always that in order to be I have always laughed a little Jeff, my husband is laughed a little Jeff, my husband is laughed a little Jeff, my husband is here today. He loves when I call him out here today. He loves when I call him out here today. He loves when I call him out when I'm doing stuff like this. He's got when I'm doing stuff like this. He's got when I'm doing stuff like this. He's got that look on his face right now. But I that look on his face right now. But I that look on his face right now. But I I've often reflected that um I have a

I've often reflected that um I have a I've often reflected that um I have a really easy marriage to Jeff because the really easy marriage to Jeff because the really easy marriage to Jeff because the Lord knew that my marriage to the local Lord knew that my marriage to the local Lord knew that my marriage to the local church was going to be a real rodeo. Um, church was going to be a real rodeo. Um, church was going to be a real rodeo. Um, so I do think that if you are a woman so I do think that if you are a woman so I do think that if you are a woman who finds herself with a lot of who finds herself with a lot of who finds herself with a lot of relational health in other spaces, you relational health in other spaces, you relational health in other spaces, you will have more shock absorbers to face will have more shock absorbers to face will have more shock absorbers to face whatever might come your way as you whatever might come your way as you whatever might come your way as you attempt to serve in the local church in attempt to serve in the local church in attempt to serve in the local church in the ways that the Lord has wired you to. the ways that the Lord has wired you to. the ways that the Lord has wired you to. So, um, that would be a caveat that I So, um, that would be a caveat that I So, um, that would be a caveat that I would have is, um, if you've got a if would have is, um, if you've got a if would have is, um, if you've got a if you've got deep wells of support, you're you've got deep wells of support, you're you've got deep wells of support, you're in a much better position to say, "Hey, in a much better position to say, "Hey, in a much better position to say, "Hey, I have I have something to offer here. I have I have something to offer here. I have I have something to offer here. would you consider um giving me an would you consider um giving me an would you consider um giving me an opportunity? That's really helpful. Jen, opportunity? That's really helpful. Jen, opportunity? That's really helpful. Jen, um you've named a a bit of the the fear. um you've named a a bit of the the fear. um you've named a a bit of the the fear. I've I've heard that uh thrown around I've I've heard that uh thrown around I've I've heard that uh thrown around here a bit. What are some common fears, here a bit. What are some common fears, here a bit. What are some common fears, common misconceptions do you think that common misconceptions do you think that common misconceptions do you think that kind of attends this conversation on men kind of attends this conversation on men kind of attends this conversation on men and women ministering and women ministering and women ministering together and and and how can we address together and and and how can we address together and and and how can we address that? What are some practical ways that that? What are some practical ways that that? What are some practical ways that we can address those fears and allay we can address those fears and allay we can address those fears and allay those fears? I mean, I touched on a those fears? I mean, I touched on a those fears? I mean, I touched on a couple of them already, you know, that couple of them already, you know, that couple of them already, you know, that she's here to she's here to take power she's here to she's here to take power she's here to she's here to take power or to try to sleep with me. Um, and or to try to sleep with me. Um, and or to try to sleep with me. Um, and there's been a kind of a joke among some there's been a kind of a joke among some there's been a kind of a joke among some of the women when we talk about this of of the women when we talk about this of of the women when we talk about this of like where there's some days you just like where there's some days you just like where there's some days you just want to go, "Look, dude, you're not want to go, "Look, dude, you're not want to go, "Look, dude, you're not hot." Okay.

hot." Okay. hot." Okay. You No, you're not all dead. No, just You No, you're not all dead. No, just You No, you're not all dead. No, just let me do my job. I just have a thing I let me do my job. I just have a thing I let me do my job. I just have a thing I want to do. I'm sorry that apparently want to do. I'm sorry that apparently want to do. I'm sorry that apparently everyone's so into you. I am not. Uh, everyone's so into you. I am not. Uh, everyone's so into you. I am not. Uh, I'm being ridiculous at this point. I'm being ridiculous at this point. I'm being ridiculous at this point. Where were we? Okay. Um, but I think, Where were we? Okay. Um, but I think, Where were we? Okay. Um, but I think, you know, I think one of I think one of you know, I think one of I think one of you know, I think one of I think one of the problems, frankly, that the problems, frankly, that the problems, frankly, that complimentarians have with this complimentarians have with this complimentarians have with this conversation is we have we have reduced conversation is we have we have reduced conversation is we have we have reduced what happens in Genesis chapter 3 to a what happens in Genesis chapter 3 to a what happens in Genesis chapter 3 to a fracturing of the marriage relationship fracturing of the marriage relationship fracturing of the marriage relationship or a fracturing of male female or a fracturing of male female or a fracturing of male female relationships. And that full stop, relationships. And that full stop, relationships. And that full stop, that's what that story is telling us. that's what that story is telling us. that's what that story is telling us. And I tend to think if that were all we And I tend to think if that were all we And I tend to think if that were all we could take from that story that the next could take from that story that the next could take from that story that the next story of conflict you would hear would story of conflict you would hear would story of conflict you would hear would be of conflict between a man and a be of conflict between a man and a be of conflict between a man and a woman. But it's not. The very next sin woman. But it's not. The very next sin woman. But it's not. The very next sin that we see against a neighbor is a that we see against a neighbor is a that we see against a neighbor is a brother against a brother. Mhm. And so I brother against a brother. Mhm. And so I brother against a brother. Mhm. And so I I think what we see in Genesis chapter 3 I think what we see in Genesis chapter 3 I think what we see in Genesis chapter 3 is nothing less than a complete is nothing less than a complete is nothing less than a complete demolition of the one demolition of the one demolition of the one anothers. It means that brothers and anothers. It means that brothers and anothers. It means that brothers and sisters who were meant to love one sisters who were meant to love one sisters who were meant to love one another will now not be able to love one another will now not be able to love one another will now not be able to love one another anymore. And when we strive to another anymore. And when we strive to another anymore. And when we strive to ask the question of what was it like in ask the question of what was it like in ask the question of what was it like in Eden? What will it be like in the new Eden? What will it be like in the new Eden? What will it be like in the new Jerusalem? How do we live toward that?

Jerusalem? How do we live toward that? Jerusalem? How do we live toward that? Now, it changes the way that we interact Now, it changes the way that we interact Now, it changes the way that we interact with one another. Um, and we see the the with one another. Um, and we see the the with one another. Um, and we see the the sadness of Genesis 3 as something sadness of Genesis 3 as something sadness of Genesis 3 as something bigger. Uh, and we see the challenge of bigger. Uh, and we see the challenge of bigger. Uh, and we see the challenge of living together as family as something living together as family as something living together as family as something even more beautiful. We've talked about even more beautiful. We've talked about even more beautiful. We've talked about this a lot. Uh, JT, another one of JT's this a lot. Uh, JT, another one of JT's this a lot. Uh, JT, another one of JT's favorite sayings is, "He who tells the favorite sayings is, "He who tells the favorite sayings is, "He who tells the best story wins." best story wins." best story wins." We have a beautiful story to tell. And I We have a beautiful story to tell. And I We have a beautiful story to tell. And I think we leave it untold because we are think we leave it untold because we are think we leave it untold because we are afraid and we're only afraid of one afraid and we're only afraid of one afraid and we're only afraid of one thing. Um and so my prayer would be that thing. Um and so my prayer would be that thing. Um and so my prayer would be that we would learn to um to walk in the we would learn to um to walk in the we would learn to um to walk in the beautiful story that I think the church beautiful story that I think the church beautiful story that I think the church is meant to demonstrate. If the church is meant to demonstrate. If the church is meant to demonstrate. If the church can't chart a path on friendship, what can't chart a path on friendship, what can't chart a path on friendship, what hope does the culture have that is now hope does the culture have that is now hope does the culture have that is now in a place of saying that any strong in a place of saying that any strong in a place of saying that any strong emotion for another person, whether the emotion for another person, whether the emotion for another person, whether the same sex or the opposite sex, is same sex or the opposite sex, is same sex or the opposite sex, is romantic or sexual. We're we're who's romantic or sexual. We're we're who's romantic or sexual. We're we're who's supposed to give a better vision than supposed to give a better vision than supposed to give a better vision than that. It's on us. The culture is not that. It's on us. The culture is not that. It's on us. The culture is not going to solve that one. Um and so going to solve that one. Um and so going to solve that one. Um and so that's why I pray that we will not be that's why I pray that we will not be that's why I pray that we will not be led by fear, but by a spirit of love.

led by fear, but by a spirit of love. led by fear, but by a spirit of love. That's so That's so That's so good. Um talk to me all of you about good. Um talk to me all of you about good. Um talk to me all of you about um what are good and right boundaries if um what are good and right boundaries if um what are good and right boundaries if if we are talking about family families if we are talking about family families if we are talking about family families I mean there are good and right I mean there are good and right I mean there are good and right boundaries in families. So what are good boundaries in families. So what are good boundaries in families. So what are good and right boundaries in God's family? Um and right boundaries in God's family? Um and right boundaries in God's family? Um are there are there boundaries that are there are there boundaries that are there are there boundaries that you've had for male female relationships you've had for male female relationships you've had for male female relationships um that you found helpful? um that you found helpful? um that you found helpful? Don't be a jerk. Don't be a jerk. Yeah. Don't be a jerk. Don't be a jerk. Yeah. Don't be a jerk. Don't be a jerk. Yeah. And that's a great boundary. Talk to me And that's a great boundary. Talk to me And that's a great boundary. Talk to me a little bit more about that. flush that a little bit more about that. flush that a little bit more about that. flush that out. Well, I I I think I I think I we we out. Well, I I I think I I think I we we out. Well, I I I think I I think I we we passed over this so quickly. The very passed over this so quickly. The very passed over this so quickly. The very first thing we talked about was fear. first thing we talked about was fear. first thing we talked about was fear. And I I think there's a lot of space to And I I think there's a lot of space to And I I think there's a lot of space to go into like what are we really really go into like what are we really really go into like what are we really really really afraid of? And part of the reason really afraid of? And part of the reason really afraid of? And part of the reason why there's a lot of fear is because why there's a lot of fear is because why there's a lot of fear is because there's a lot of stories uh uh that that there's a lot of stories uh uh that that there's a lot of stories uh uh that that have made us afraid because things have have made us afraid because things have have made us afraid because things have really happened. There has been abuse. really happened. There has been abuse. really happened. There has been abuse. There has been uh moral failing. There There has been uh moral failing. There There has been uh moral failing. There has been uh people have been taken has been uh people have been taken has been uh people have been taken advantage of. there has been uh people advantage of. there has been uh people advantage of. there has been uh people who have been seduced, men and women who have been seduced, men and women who have been seduced, men and women seduced. And so that's why there's so seduced. And so that's why there's so seduced. And so that's why there's so much fear. So how do you how do you much fear. So how do you how do you much fear. So how do you how do you actually, you know, what are the actually, you know, what are the actually, you know, what are the guidelines and rule rules for that? I guidelines and rule rules for that? I guidelines and rule rules for that? I think um it's hard because we're in this think um it's hard because we're in this think um it's hard because we're in this space of fear all the time that uh we we space of fear all the time that uh we we space of fear all the time that uh we we try to put out these barriers of things, try to put out these barriers of things, try to put out these barriers of things, right? Listen, I I don't know. I can't right? Listen, I I don't know. I can't right? Listen, I I don't know. I can't believe I'm saying this. I I believe I'm saying this. I I believe I'm saying this. I I um my my wife and I uh I talked to her um my my wife and I uh I talked to her um my my wife and I uh I talked to her and and I was like, "Listen, a lot of and and I was like, "Listen, a lot of and and I was like, "Listen, a lot of people they can have moral failure in people they can have moral failure in people they can have moral failure in their jobs and uh they can keep going on

their jobs and uh they can keep going on their jobs and uh they can keep going on if you're a banker, if you're whatever. if you're a banker, if you're whatever. if you're a banker, if you're whatever. I can't do that. So, you're good. Don't I can't do that. So, you're good. Don't I can't do that. So, you're good. Don't worry. Our marriage is going to be worry. Our marriage is going to be worry. Our marriage is going to be fine." And she's like, "That doesn't fine." And she's like, "That doesn't fine." And she's like, "That doesn't that didn't stop a lot of other people." that didn't stop a lot of other people." that didn't stop a lot of other people." And so there's this there's a valid And so there's this there's a valid And so there's this there's a valid question of kind of like how do we question of kind of like how do we question of kind of like how do we actually make sure that actually make sure that actually make sure that um you know I think part of it is um you know I think part of it is um you know I think part of it is transparency, part of it is actually transparency, part of it is actually transparency, part of it is actually open honesty. I think there's been times open honesty. I think there's been times open honesty. I think there's been times when I'm I'm on a lot of group chats when I'm I'm on a lot of group chats when I'm I'm on a lot of group chats with with people on my staff um men and with with people on my staff um men and with with people on my staff um men and women to make sure that there's there's women to make sure that there's there's women to make sure that there's there's that. But I I think it's it's uh it's that. But I I think it's it's uh it's that. But I I think it's it's uh it's different. I love to hear what everybody different. I love to hear what everybody different. I love to hear what everybody else has to say. Yeah. I mean, this is I else has to say. Yeah. I mean, this is I else has to say. Yeah. I mean, this is I think this is the question and it's why think this is the question and it's why think this is the question and it's why this conversation's hard because I don't this conversation's hard because I don't this conversation's hard because I don't know that anybody has the if you do this know that anybody has the if you do this know that anybody has the if you do this then you don't have to be afraid then you don't have to be afraid then you don't have to be afraid anymore, right? Or if you do this, we'll anymore, right? Or if you do this, we'll anymore, right? Or if you do this, we'll fix the problem or whatever it might be. fix the problem or whatever it might be. fix the problem or whatever it might be. And I think one of the obvious uh things And I think one of the obvious uh things And I think one of the obvious uh things that we might be talking about a little that we might be talking about a little that we might be talking about a little bit elephant in the room is like the bit elephant in the room is like the bit elephant in the room is like the Billy Graham rule. Is that a wise thing Billy Graham rule. Is that a wise thing Billy Graham rule. Is that a wise thing to do is the Billy Graham rule and to do is the Billy Graham rule and to do is the Billy Graham rule and having a system set up in the life of having a system set up in the life of having a system set up in the life of your church and in your staff to, you your church and in your staff to, you your church and in your staff to, you know, not either either mandate or have know, not either either mandate or have know, not either either mandate or have some kind of regulation. And let me just some kind of regulation. And let me just some kind of regulation. And let me just say, we might even have different say, we might even have different say, we might even have different perspectives on this panel. It might be perspectives on this panel. It might be perspectives on this panel. It might be wise for you to have that if that's wise for you to have that if that's wise for you to have that if that's something that is your personal struggle something that is your personal struggle something that is your personal struggle and it's something that you would say and it's something that you would say and it's something that you would say you've talked to your spouse or to your you've talked to your spouse or to your you've talked to your spouse or to your team and you would say this is a this is team and you would say this is a this is team and you would say this is a this is a system that I'm going to put in place a system that I'm going to put in place a system that I'm going to put in place as a matter of wisdom for me in an area as a matter of wisdom for me in an area as a matter of wisdom for me in an area of my life then man I I I I wouldn't see of my life then man I I I I wouldn't see of my life then man I I I I wouldn't see any reason why you shouldn't do that.

any reason why you shouldn't do that. any reason why you shouldn't do that. However, I would also say anytime you However, I would also say anytime you However, I would also say anytime you put a system like that in place I would put a system like that in place I would put a system like that in place I would give two caveats. The first is um give two caveats. The first is um give two caveats. The first is um systems never actually stop sin. Right? systems never actually stop sin. Right? systems never actually stop sin. Right? This is more than a system issue. This This is more than a system issue. This This is more than a system issue. This is a heart issue and more than just is a heart issue and more than just is a heart issue and more than just putting a system in place. I would putting a system in place. I would putting a system in place. I would really encourage you, you need to get really encourage you, you need to get really encourage you, you need to get into the to the internal matter matters, into the to the internal matter matters, into the to the internal matter matters, the guttural matters of your soul and the guttural matters of your soul and the guttural matters of your soul and your heart and begin working on that, your heart and begin working on that, your heart and begin working on that, not just putting a system in place. And not just putting a system in place. And not just putting a system in place. And the second thing I would say is any the second thing I would say is any the second thing I would say is any system you put in place comes with system you put in place comes with system you put in place comes with costs. And so if you if that's a costs. And so if you if that's a costs. And so if you if that's a decision that you make, you're not going decision that you make, you're not going decision that you make, you're not going to meet with a person of the opposite to meet with a person of the opposite to meet with a person of the opposite sex alone, I would just say actually I'm sex alone, I would just say actually I'm sex alone, I would just say actually I'm going to give two more caveats. One of going to give two more caveats. One of going to give two more caveats. One of those caveats would be is that doesn't those caveats would be is that doesn't those caveats would be is that doesn't prevent all sexual sin, especially as we prevent all sexual sin, especially as we prevent all sexual sin, especially as we live in a day when we're increasingly live in a day when we're increasingly live in a day when we're increasingly aware of uh uh sexual sin potentially aware of uh uh sexual sin potentially aware of uh uh sexual sin potentially with the same gender. I've been a part with the same gender. I've been a part with the same gender. I've been a part of of of situations where the Billy of of of situations where the Billy of of of situations where the Billy Graham rule was in place, but that did Graham rule was in place, but that did Graham rule was in place, but that did not stop sexual sin. And so again, I'm not stop sexual sin. And so again, I'm not stop sexual sin. And so again, I'm saying it doesn't it doesn't completely saying it doesn't it doesn't completely saying it doesn't it doesn't completely stop sin. It also you need to remember stop sin. It also you need to remember stop sin. It also you need to remember and I'm not just talking about the Billy and I'm not just talking about the Billy and I'm not just talking about the Billy Graham rule. And again, that's something Graham rule. And again, that's something Graham rule. And again, that's something you might need to do for yourself, might you might need to do for yourself, might you might need to do for yourself, might be something that's good for your team, be something that's good for your team, be something that's good for your team, but be aware of the cost. That's the but be aware of the cost. That's the but be aware of the cost. That's the third caveat is anytime you do something third caveat is anytime you do something third caveat is anytime you do something like that, there will be people on your like that, there will be people on your like that, there will be people on your team that if you're unaware of the cost team that if you're unaware of the cost team that if you're unaware of the cost that they're paying because of that that they're paying because of that that they're paying because of that system, uh they're going to undergo system, uh they're going to undergo system, uh they're going to undergo undue uh challenges or harm in the life undue uh challenges or harm in the life undue uh challenges or harm in the life of your organization that somebody else of your organization that somebody else of your organization that somebody else might not. So, just for example, if you might not. So, just for example, if you might not. So, just for example, if you end up hanging out with all the guys and end up hanging out with all the guys and end up hanging out with all the guys and you guys go out uh you know to have a you guys go out uh you know to have a you guys go out uh you know to have a meal after after you know a Sunday meal after after you know a Sunday meal after after you know a Sunday gathering or something like that and you gathering or something like that and you gathering or something like that and you don't invite the sisters on your team

don't invite the sisters on your team don't invite the sisters on your team because of some kind of a fear around because of some kind of a fear around because of some kind of a fear around that you're putting challenges around that you're putting challenges around that you're putting challenges around them to develop professionally to grow them to develop professionally to grow them to develop professionally to grow to receive feedback in their role to receive feedback in their role to receive feedback in their role potentially. So, and you're missing out potentially. So, and you're missing out potentially. So, and you're missing out on on what they have to offer too. A lot on on what they have to offer too. A lot on on what they have to offer too. A lot of times there's actually situations of times there's actually situations of times there's actually situations where you find yourself in a one-on-one where you find yourself in a one-on-one where you find yourself in a one-on-one situation and if you kind of have a hard situation and if you kind of have a hard situation and if you kind of have a hard and fast rule there and I I get the and fast rule there and I I get the and fast rule there and I I get the wisdom of it, but I think you actually wisdom of it, but I think you actually wisdom of it, but I think you actually end up lo if we each have something to end up lo if we each have something to end up lo if we each have something to offer that the other person needs and offer that the other person needs and offer that the other person needs and I'm then I professionally we're talking I'm then I professionally we're talking I'm then I professionally we're talking about just inside the church. I'm about just inside the church. I'm about just inside the church. I'm missing out on the uh the wisdom that I missing out on the uh the wisdom that I missing out on the uh the wisdom that I might be having in that in that moment might be having in that in that moment might be having in that in that moment where we we happen to be in an office where we we happen to be in an office where we we happen to be in an office alone because we're talking about a alone because we're talking about a alone because we're talking about a pastoral uh like some sort of uh you pastoral uh like some sort of uh you pastoral uh like some sort of uh you know care issue or some sort of need or know care issue or some sort of need or know care issue or some sort of need or some sort of direction that we need to some sort of direction that we need to some sort of direction that we need to go in when it comes to various ministral go in when it comes to various ministral go in when it comes to various ministral issues. So I I I love that you I'm glad issues. So I I I love that you I'm glad issues. So I I I love that you I'm glad you brought up the cost because I think you brought up the cost because I think you brought up the cost because I think it can be a very high cost. I The point it can be a very high cost. I The point it can be a very high cost. I The point you're making is it's not just a cost to you're making is it's not just a cost to you're making is it's not just a cost to the person you're putting up the system the person you're putting up the system the person you're putting up the system against, it's a cost to you, right? You against, it's a cost to you, right? You against, it's a cost to you, right? You don't I'm missing out on something that don't I'm missing out on something that don't I'm missing out on something that I wish that I wouldn't have seen unless I wish that I wouldn't have seen unless I wish that I wouldn't have seen unless that person might unless the women on my that person might unless the women on my that person might unless the women on my on our team would uh tell us because on our team would uh tell us because on our team would uh tell us because we're we're blinded now to it because we we're we're blinded now to it because we we're we're blinded now to it because we missed out. That's right. Well, and I do missed out. That's right. Well, and I do missed out. That's right. Well, and I do think I mean I don't know if you think I mean I don't know if you think I mean I don't know if you remember I think I was on this panel remember I think I was on this panel remember I think I was on this panel with you years ago and a and a very with you years ago and a and a very with you years ago and a and a very well-intended guy sitting on the front well-intended guy sitting on the front well-intended guy sitting on the front row asked me he said, "Well, I don't row asked me he said, "Well, I don't row asked me he said, "Well, I don't understand like how am I supposed to do understand like how am I supposed to do understand like how am I supposed to do this? Like I know how to like mentor a this? Like I know how to like mentor a this? Like I know how to like mentor a guy at my church. I know what to do, but guy at my church. I know what to do, but guy at my church. I know what to do, but how would I like how would I provide how would I like how would I provide how would I like how would I provide mentorship like to a woman if she came mentorship like to a woman if she came mentorship like to a woman if she came to me and was looking to learn like how to me and was looking to learn like how to me and was looking to learn like how to study the Bible or something like to study the Bible or something like to study the Bible or something like that? And I honestly sat there thinking,

that? And I honestly sat there thinking, that? And I honestly sat there thinking, what on earth are you doing when you what on earth are you doing when you what on earth are you doing when you mentor this man? Like are you guys like mentor this man? Like are you guys like mentor this man? Like are you guys like having slumber parties? Like what? And I having slumber parties? Like what? And I having slumber parties? Like what? And I think that we can overlook I think think that we can overlook I think think that we can overlook I think because there is such a pervasive because there is such a pervasive because there is such a pervasive culture of fear around this in many culture of fear around this in many culture of fear around this in many cases we have lost any imagination cases we have lost any imagination cases we have lost any imagination around the myriad ways that men and around the myriad ways that men and around the myriad ways that men and women can interact with no whiff of women can interact with no whiff of women can interact with no whiff of impropriy impropriy impropriy um because we're just so scared and I um because we're just so scared and I um because we're just so scared and I mean they're honestly there like you mean they're honestly there like you mean they're honestly there like you know the Slack channel is one or um you know the Slack channel is one or um you know the Slack channel is one or um you know we realized at the church that we know we realized at the church that we know we realized at the church that we served together that um because we were served together that um because we were served together that um because we were good complimentarian ians. It meant that good complimentarian ians. It meant that good complimentarian ians. It meant that the men were all like, "Ladies, please the men were all like, "Ladies, please the men were all like, "Ladies, please go through the food line first when we'd go through the food line first when we'd go through the food line first when we'd have our big staff meeting." Which have our big staff meeting." Which have our big staff meeting." Which meant, guess what? When we sat down at meant, guess what? When we sat down at meant, guess what? When we sat down at tables, all the women sat together and tables, all the women sat together and tables, all the women sat together and all the men sat together. And so, one of all the men sat together. And so, one of all the men sat together. And so, one of the first things that we did to shift the first things that we did to shift the first things that we did to shift the culture was we said, "We're not the culture was we said, "We're not the culture was we said, "We're not doing that anymore. We're all going to doing that anymore. We're all going to doing that anymore. We're all going to go through the line, you know, however go through the line, you know, however go through the line, you know, however we got up and got in line. We appreciate we got up and got in line. We appreciate we got up and got in line. We appreciate the thought, guys, you know, but then the thought, guys, you know, but then the thought, guys, you know, but then we're all going to make it a point to we're all going to make it a point to we're all going to make it a point to sit at a table together and share this sit at a table together and share this sit at a table together and share this meal because again, um, you know, it it meal because again, um, you know, it it meal because again, um, you know, it it was a frustration point for some of the was a frustration point for some of the was a frustration point for some of the women. Like it's like these me the men women. Like it's like these me the men women. Like it's like these me the men go on hiking trips together and they go go on hiking trips together and they go go on hiking trips together and they go they never did a hiking trip. I'm just they never did a hiking trip. I'm just they never did a hiking trip. I'm just saying some some men uh and also I don't saying some some men uh and also I don't saying some some men uh and also I don't want to go on a hiking trip. Let me be want to go on a hiking trip. Let me be want to go on a hiking trip. Let me be clear. Um but that there were hundreds clear. Um but that there were hundreds clear. Um but that there were hundreds of opportunities for the men to deepen of opportunities for the men to deepen of opportunities for the men to deepen trust and relationship with each other.

trust and relationship with each other. trust and relationship with each other. Um and the women could never have and I Um and the women could never have and I Um and the women could never have and I I I don't expect that the men and the I I don't expect that the men and the I I don't expect that the men and the women will share the same depth of women will share the same depth of women will share the same depth of friendship with each other that they friendship with each other that they friendship with each other that they have with with their in their single have with with their in their single have with with their in their single gender spaces because there's just there gender spaces because there's just there gender spaces because there's just there are so many good and beautiful ways in are so many good and beautiful ways in are so many good and beautiful ways in which those relationships can be which those relationships can be which those relationships can be developed. But should the disparity be developed. But should the disparity be developed. But should the disparity be so great that we only know each other so great that we only know each other so great that we only know each other this much? And that was one of the this much? And that was one of the this much? And that was one of the things that we just determined. We're things that we just determined. We're things that we just determined. We're not going to be like this anymore. We're not going to be like this anymore. We're not going to be like this anymore. We're going to actually know each other so going to actually know each other so going to actually know each other so that we can genuinely say we love each that we can genuinely say we love each that we can genuinely say we love each other and mean it. I love it. I love it. other and mean it. I love it. I love it. other and mean it. I love it. I love it. How would you guys What encouragement How would you guys What encouragement How would you guys What encouragement would you give to pastors would you give to pastors would you give to pastors um about what's the beauty? I mean, um about what's the beauty? I mean, um about what's the beauty? I mean, you've been painting a picture. and you've been painting a picture. and you've been painting a picture. and wanting to just to give you an wanting to just to give you an wanting to just to give you an opportunity just to say it uh full stop. opportunity just to say it uh full stop. opportunity just to say it uh full stop. What What are What are the beauties of What What are What are the beauties of What What are What are the beauties of men and women working together? Why men and women working together? Why men and women working together? Why would you encourage pastors to go after would you encourage pastors to go after would you encourage pastors to go after this? I mean, unity. I feel like I'm this? I mean, unity. I feel like I'm this? I mean, unity. I feel like I'm saying the same thing every every time, saying the same thing every every time, saying the same thing every every time, but it's it's the unity and diversity. but it's it's the unity and diversity. but it's it's the unity and diversity. We celebrate biodiversity. We celebrate We celebrate biodiversity. We celebrate We celebrate biodiversity. We celebrate racial diversity. We should be racial diversity. We should be racial diversity. We should be celebrating we should be celebrating celebrating we should be celebrating celebrating we should be celebrating gender diversity in our um in our spaces gender diversity in our um in our spaces gender diversity in our um in our spaces because we see things differently. I because we see things differently. I because we see things differently. I mean uh and and and and you know it's mean uh and and and and you know it's mean uh and and and and you know it's the beauty in marriage but it's it's the beauty in marriage but it's it's the beauty in marriage but it's it's actually the beauty in our in our church actually the beauty in our in our church actually the beauty in our in our church um you know hierarchies programming um you know hierarchies programming um you know hierarchies programming everything else that I think there's everything else that I think there's everything else that I think there's just uh such a better story where it is just uh such a better story where it is just uh such a better story where it is fascinating that as as culture has said fascinating that as as culture has said fascinating that as as culture has said there is no difference we've actually there is no difference we've actually there is no difference we've actually hypersexualized the differences and like hypersexualized the differences and like hypersexualized the differences and like so that we can't even be in the same

so that we can't even be in the same so that we can't even be in the same room you know um because of of room you know um because of of room you know um because of of temptations and stuff like that versus temptations and stuff like that versus temptations and stuff like that versus saying hey we're different let's let's saying hey we're different let's let's saying hey we're different let's let's be aware of those differenc not let's be aware of those differenc not let's be aware of those differenc not let's not play them down, but there's a good not play them down, but there's a good not play them down, but there's a good in this difference. And I I'm missing in this difference. And I I'm missing in this difference. And I I'm missing out on if I don't actually get to know out on if I don't actually get to know out on if I don't actually get to know who you are, not just individually, but who you are, not just individually, but who you are, not just individually, but but uh relationally on all the other but uh relationally on all the other but uh relationally on all the other levels. And I I I think there's just levels. And I I I think there's just levels. And I I I think there's just such a um when people say, "Well, you such a um when people say, "Well, you such a um when people say, "Well, you know, when I was working I was working know, when I was working I was working know, when I was working I was working in college ministry and somebody found in college ministry and somebody found in college ministry and somebody found out what denomination I was part of, out what denomination I was part of, out what denomination I was part of, they're like, "You must hate women." Uh, they're like, "You must hate women." Uh, they're like, "You must hate women." Uh, and I was like, I I'm I'm I I hear why and I was like, I I'm I'm I I hear why and I was like, I I'm I'm I I hear why you're you're saying that, but you're you're you're saying that, but you're you're you're saying that, but you're missing out on the on the beauty of of missing out on the on the beauty of of missing out on the on the beauty of of what we're trying to do here, which is what we're trying to do here, which is what we're trying to do here, which is actually elevate each other by saying actually elevate each other by saying actually elevate each other by saying we're not going to pretend that we're we're not going to pretend that we're we're not going to pretend that we're actually the same. That that men and actually the same. That that men and actually the same. That that men and women hear sounds differently. They women hear sounds differently. They women hear sounds differently. They process in different parts of their process in different parts of their process in different parts of their brain. They see things differently. And brain. They see things differently. And brain. They see things differently. And that's a good because the way then when that's a good because the way then when that's a good because the way then when we end up painting and building and we end up painting and building and we end up painting and building and doing things, we're not going to go doing things, we're not going to go doing things, we're not going to go about it the same way. And that's going about it the same way. And that's going about it the same way. And that's going to actually love and serve and and uh to actually love and serve and and uh to actually love and serve and and uh build in in in wonderful ways. So that's build in in in wonderful ways. So that's build in in in wonderful ways. So that's what I would say. what I would say. what I would say. Yeah, I agree with that. I think we're Yeah, I agree with that. I think we're Yeah, I agree with that. I think we're using a few different kind of pictures using a few different kind of pictures using a few different kind of pictures here. And one of the pictures that we've here. And one of the pictures that we've here. And one of the pictures that we've tried to paint is the local church as a tried to paint is the local church as a tried to paint is the local church as a family. That's been meaningful to me as family. That's been meaningful to me as family. That's been meaningful to me as the as a you know, having a single mom the as a you know, having a single mom the as a you know, having a single mom also being an only child. And so I mean also being an only child. And so I mean also being an only child. And so I mean quite literally part of the go the good quite literally part of the go the good quite literally part of the go the good news of the gospel for me is I'm now news of the gospel for me is I'm now news of the gospel for me is I'm now invited into this family of God where invited into this family of God where invited into this family of God where brothers and sisters get to love each brothers and sisters get to love each brothers and sisters get to love each other. But I think another p phrase that other. But I think another p phrase that other. But I think another p phrase that you just used Jen and Michael is you just used Jen and Michael is you just used Jen and Michael is friendship. Man, I think what an friendship. Man, I think what an friendship. Man, I think what an opportunity the church has in a moment opportunity the church has in a moment opportunity the church has in a moment of extreme isolation, hyper of extreme isolation, hyper of extreme isolation, hyper individualism for the body of Christ,

individualism for the body of Christ, individualism for the body of Christ, not just to imitate uh what it looks not just to imitate uh what it looks not just to imitate uh what it looks like to be a part of a healthy family, a like to be a part of a healthy family, a like to be a part of a healthy family, a spiritual family of brothers and spiritual family of brothers and spiritual family of brothers and sisters, but to retrieve friendship, to sisters, but to retrieve friendship, to sisters, but to retrieve friendship, to retrieve uh just genuine collegiality retrieve uh just genuine collegiality retrieve uh just genuine collegiality with each other. And I would just tell with each other. And I would just tell with each other. And I would just tell tell you brothers and sisters that are tell you brothers and sisters that are tell you brothers and sisters that are in the room kind of thinking about how in the room kind of thinking about how in the room kind of thinking about how to take next steps forward. There isn't to take next steps forward. There isn't to take next steps forward. There isn't a perfect path. It's not the here's the a perfect path. It's not the here's the a perfect path. It's not the here's the four-step plan to build to building four-step plan to build to building four-step plan to build to building friendship and a brother sister friendship and a brother sister friendship and a brother sister relationship. There is going to be risk. relationship. There is going to be risk. relationship. There is going to be risk. Trust needs to be developed. Uh but it's Trust needs to be developed. Uh but it's Trust needs to be developed. Uh but it's worth it. Yeah, it's worth it. It's worth it. Yeah, it's worth it. It's worth it. Yeah, it's worth it. It's worth the risk. It's worth the risk. I worth the risk. It's worth the risk. I worth the risk. It's worth the risk. I I've experienced that now at the two I've experienced that now at the two I've experienced that now at the two churches that I've had the opportunity churches that I've had the opportunity churches that I've had the opportunity to be in leadership at. And I don't we to be in leadership at. And I don't we to be in leadership at. And I don't we don't have a playbook. we don't have a don't have a playbook. we don't have a don't have a playbook. we don't have a plan and it's not perfect and but I plan and it's not perfect and but I plan and it's not perfect and but I would just say that the friendships that would just say that the friendships that would just say that the friendships that I have on my staff team and the genuine I have on my staff team and the genuine I have on my staff team and the genuine brotherly sisterly nature that I feel brotherly sisterly nature that I feel brotherly sisterly nature that I feel like I have with my colleagues reminds like I have with my colleagues reminds like I have with my colleagues reminds me of the good news of the gospel that I me of the good news of the gospel that I me of the good news of the gospel that I am no longer an only child. Uh that I I am no longer an only child. Uh that I I am no longer an only child. Uh that I I no longer just have a mom that is an no longer just have a mom that is an no longer just have a mom that is an authority figure over me, but I have a authority figure over me, but I have a authority figure over me, but I have a uh heavenly father who loves me, has uh heavenly father who loves me, has uh heavenly father who loves me, has invited me and adopted me into this invited me and adopted me into this invited me and adopted me into this family of relationships that I'll never family of relationships that I'll never family of relationships that I'll never have biologically but now have at a much have biologically but now have at a much have biologically but now have at a much deeper level because of the blood of deeper level because of the blood of deeper level because of the blood of Christ.

Christ. Christ. Um I am going to key in on that Um I am going to key in on that Um I am going to key in on that friendship idea a little bit more. I friendship idea a little bit more. I friendship idea a little bit more. I through the years have had the through the years have had the through the years have had the opportunity to talk about just parenting opportunity to talk about just parenting opportunity to talk about just parenting things sometimes at this conference and things sometimes at this conference and things sometimes at this conference and um one of the things that I run into so um one of the things that I run into so um one of the things that I run into so often with parents who have more than often with parents who have more than often with parents who have more than one child is they believe that sibling one child is they believe that sibling one child is they believe that sibling rivalry is the best they can hope for in rivalry is the best they can hope for in rivalry is the best they can hope for in their homes. And I would have thought their homes. And I would have thought their homes. And I would have thought that too except that I married someone that too except that I married someone that too except that I married someone whose best friend growing up was his whose best friend growing up was his whose best friend growing up was his sister. like to the point that I had to sister. like to the point that I had to sister. like to the point that I had to mock it because it made me feel so mock it because it made me feel so mock it because it made me feel so uncomfortable. Like Jeff and his sister uncomfortable. Like Jeff and his sister uncomfortable. Like Jeff and his sister Emily um would hold hands uh at Disney Emily um would hold hands uh at Disney Emily um would hold hands uh at Disney World in uh high school together. They World in uh high school together. They World in uh high school together. They would um her senior year of high school, would um her senior year of high school, would um her senior year of high school, she couldn't get a date to her big she couldn't get a date to her big she couldn't get a date to her big school dance and so he came home from school dance and so he came home from school dance and so he came home from college and took her to the dance. And I college and took her to the dance. And I college and took her to the dance. And I was so I just thought that's not right. was so I just thought that's not right. was so I just thought that's not right. That can't be right. I have to I have to That can't be right. I have to I have to That can't be right. I have to I have to criticize that or make fun of that. But criticize that or make fun of that. But criticize that or make fun of that. But then it occurred to me, you know, what then it occurred to me, you know, what then it occurred to me, you know, what if that is possible? Like what if my if that is possible? Like what if my if that is possible? Like what if my vision for my own children's vision for my own children's vision for my own children's interactions is too interactions is too interactions is too small? So we raised our kids to be best small? So we raised our kids to be best small? So we raised our kids to be best friends with each other. We have two friends with each other. We have two friends with each other. We have two boys, two girls, and it worked.

boys, two girls, and it worked. boys, two girls, and it worked. And I think that sometimes the reason And I think that sometimes the reason And I think that sometimes the reason that the church falters around the that the church falters around the that the church falters around the question of men and women is because we question of men and women is because we question of men and women is because we believe the best that we can hope for is believe the best that we can hope for is believe the best that we can hope for is sibling rivalry. sibling rivalry. sibling rivalry. And in the book of Proverbs, it And in the book of Proverbs, it And in the book of Proverbs, it says there is a friend who sticks closer says there is a friend who sticks closer says there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother. than a brother. than a brother. In other words, the category for In other words, the category for In other words, the category for siblinghood in the Bible is meant to siblinghood in the Bible is meant to siblinghood in the Bible is meant to be a baseline understanding of be a baseline understanding of be a baseline understanding of friendship. Like friendship and friendship. Like friendship and friendship. Like friendship and siblinghood can almost be interchange siblinghood can almost be interchange siblinghood can almost be interchange the way they're used in the proverbs. It the way they're used in the proverbs. It the way they're used in the proverbs. It doesn't just mean my sister who I make doesn't just mean my sister who I make doesn't just mean my sister who I make fun of or my brother who's so weird and fun of or my brother who's so weird and fun of or my brother who's so weird and smells funny. It means I was back to smells funny. It means I was back to smells funny. It means I was back to literal family there. I hope people in literal family there. I hope people in literal family there. I hope people in your church aren't weird and smell your church aren't weird and smell your church aren't weird and smell funny, but probably some of them do. funny, but probably some of them do. funny, but probably some of them do. But my my point would just be what if But my my point would just be what if But my my point would just be what if the family of God had a more beautiful the family of God had a more beautiful the family of God had a more beautiful vision for siblinghood than we have vision for siblinghood than we have vision for siblinghood than we have sometimes even believed or experienced sometimes even believed or experienced sometimes even believed or experienced in our own nuclear families. What if we in our own nuclear families. What if we in our own nuclear families. What if we truly believed that these spiritual truly believed that these spiritual truly believed that these spiritual siblings are meant to be friends who siblings are meant to be friends who siblings are meant to be friends who stick closer than a brother? That's all stick closer than a brother? That's all stick closer than a brother? That's all I got. Amen. And what a great point to I got. Amen. And what a great point to I got. Amen. And what a great point to conclude on. Can we thank our panelists conclude on. Can we thank our panelists conclude on. Can we thank our panelists for a for a for a wonderful discussion? I'm going to close with a discussion? I'm going to close with a word of prayer. Gracious father, we word of prayer. Gracious father, we word of prayer. Gracious father, we thank you for the opportunity uh to

thank you for the opportunity uh to thank you for the opportunity uh to serve in your church. We thank you Lord serve in your church. We thank you Lord serve in your church. We thank you Lord that we get to be called your children. that we get to be called your children. that we get to be called your children. Uh we get to be a part of your family. Uh we get to be a part of your family. Uh we get to be a part of your family. Father, I pray that you would give us a Father, I pray that you would give us a Father, I pray that you would give us a vision of how that looks, how it looks, vision of how that looks, how it looks, vision of how that looks, how it looks, Lord, to live as family, how to love our Lord, to live as family, how to love our Lord, to live as family, how to love our siblings well, how to uh move towards siblings well, how to uh move towards siblings well, how to uh move towards them um in a context not of fear, them um in a context not of fear, them um in a context not of fear, Father, but of freedom. So Lord, teach Father, but of freedom. So Lord, teach Father, but of freedom. So Lord, teach us your ways. Teach us to be the family us your ways. Teach us to be the family us your ways. Teach us to be the family that you have called us to be. In that you have called us to be. In that you have called us to be. In Christ's name we ask it. Amen. Christ's name we ask it. Amen. Christ's name we ask it. Amen. [Music]