A New Defense Argument Puts Lindsay Clancy’s Evidence Back in Focus

Almost a month Almost a month after the extremely after the extremely after the extremely controversial controversial controversial mistrial of mistrial of Lindsay Clancy, they Lindsay Clancy, they just had a just had a just had a major hearing in the major hearing in the major hearing in the case that case that case that revealed a lot. revealed a lot. revealed a lot. For example, her For example, her For example, her defense team first defense team first defense team first asked, “Where is the evidence that asked, “Where is the evidence that asked, “Where is the evidence that she she she even did this?” and even did this?” and even did this?” and stated that she stated that she stated that she never actually never actually never actually confessed to the confessed to the confessed to the crime. So, crime. So, Crime Fanatics Crime Fanatics , I'm Brianna Whitney, and , I'm Brianna Whitney, and , I'm Brianna Whitney, and this week in the this week in the this week in the headlines, we're headlines, we're headlines, we're discussing this discussing this discussing this important update in the important update in the important update in the Lindsay Clancy case. Lindsay Clancy case. Lindsay Clancy case. But as you can see, I'm not in But as you can see, I'm not in But as you can see, I'm not in my studio in my studio in my studio in Arizona. I'm actually Arizona. I'm actually Arizona. I'm actually in Indiana, at in Indiana, at headquarters, and I'm headquarters, and I'm headquarters, and I'm not filming this episode alone. I'm not filming this episode alone. I'm not filming this episode alone. I'm here with Ashley Flowers. here with Ashley Flowers. here with Ashley Flowers. Yes, this just Yes, this just Yes, this just unfolded. I have unfolded. I have unfolded. I have a thousand questions. a thousand questions. a thousand questions. Literally, " Literally, " Crime Fanatics Crime Fanatics " is already bombarding me with " is already bombarding me with " is already bombarding me with questions, so I questions, so I questions, so I thought it would be thought it would be thought it would be better if we just better if we just better if we just talked about it. talked about it. talked about it. Okay, so let's Okay, so let's Okay, so let's get to the point. get to the point. I think just to I think just to prepare you if prepare you if prepare you if people haven't heard of people haven't heard of people haven't heard of Lindsay Clancy, which I Lindsay Clancy, which I Lindsay Clancy, which I think most think most think most people have by now people have by now people have by now , but she is , but she is , but she is accused of accused of accused of murdering her three murdering her three murdering her three children in Massachusetts.

children in Massachusetts. children in Massachusetts. During the During the During the trial, her defense trial, her defense trial, her defense stated that she stated that she stated that she did it because she was did it because she was did it because she was suffering from suffering from suffering from postpartum postpartum postpartum psychosis. And therefore she psychosis. And therefore she psychosis. And therefore she should not be held should not be held should not be held criminally criminally criminally liable. The liable. The Massachusetts State Attorney's Office said Massachusetts State Attorney's Office said it was intentional, it was intentional, it was intentional, deliberate. She deliberate. She deliberate. She sought sought sought psychiatric psychiatric psychiatric help for many months. She help for many months. She help for many months. She struggled that she struggled that she struggled that she had planned this had planned this had planned this in advance. She in advance. She in advance. She sent her sent her sent her husband, Patrick husband, Patrick husband, Patrick Clancy, to run an Clancy, to run an Clancy, to run an errand. She knew she would be errand. She knew she would be alone, and that's when she alone, and that's when she alone, and that's when she decided to decided to decided to try to commit try to commit try to commit suicide suicide suicide after... after... after... Yeah, their argument Yeah, their argument Yeah, their argument was actually that was actually that was actually that it was it was it was intentional because intentional because intentional because she sent him she sent him she sent him so she could make it so she could make it so she could make it happen. happen. happen. Right. And they're Right. And they're Right. And they're talking about it again talking about it again . So why are we here? Why . So why are we here? Why . So why are we here? Why was this hearing held? We was this hearing held? We was this hearing held? We thought decisions would actually be thought decisions would actually be thought decisions would actually be made made made because it because it because it ended with the ended with the ended with the trial being canceled trial being canceled trial being canceled and there and there has been has been so much drama since the cancellation was announced. so much drama since the cancellation was announced. First, it took First, it took First, it took forever to get forever to get forever to get to the point of canceling the to the point of canceling the to the point of canceling the trial. trial. trial. There were, I mean, There were, I mean, There were, I mean, hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of deliberations by the hours of deliberations by the hours of deliberations by the jury. And jury. And jury. And then we learned something we then we learned something we shouldn't have shouldn't have shouldn't have learned, which was that the learned, which was that the learned, which was that the votes votes votes were split 11 to were split 11 to were split 11 to one. 11 jurors one. 11 jurors one. 11 jurors believed she was believed she was believed she was not guilty by reason of not guilty by reason of not guilty by reason of insanity, insanity, insanity, meaning she was not meaning she was not meaning she was not criminally criminally criminally responsible.

responsible. responsible. One juror One juror One juror thought she was guilty. thought she was guilty. thought she was guilty. And it turned into a And it turned into a And it turned into a barrage of questions: Is this barrage of questions: Is this barrage of questions: Is this juror doxing? Is juror doxing? Is juror doxing? Is this unfair this unfair this unfair treatment of someone who treatment of someone who treatment of someone who had doubts? Did had doubts? Did had doubts? Did he have any doubts at all he have any doubts at all he have any doubts at all ? Do you want ? Do you want ? Do you want to talk about it to talk about it to talk about it now, or do you now, or do you now, or do you think first...What do think first...What do think first...What do you want to address? you want to address? you want to address? Because I want to...No, we'll Because I want to...No, we'll Because I want to...No, we'll look at that look at that look at that later, because I later, because I later, because I want to go about the same way want to go about the same way want to go about the same way it it it went in went in went in today's today's today's hearing. hearing. hearing. Well, they had to Well, they had to Well, they had to decide, or decide, or decide, or maybe they were going to maybe they were going to maybe they were going to decide, on a number of decide, on a number of decide, on a number of different motions. different motions. different motions. Right. Right. Right. They moved some They moved some They moved some of them to a hearing of them to a hearing of them to a hearing now, on November 2nd. now, on November 2nd. now, on November 2nd. So there is another important date in this case So there is another important date in this case So there is another important date in this case , , , which will be November 2nd. which will be November 2nd. which will be November 2nd. I I I kind of stumbled upon this, kind of stumbled upon this, kind of stumbled upon this, thinking her thinking her thinking her lawyer was going to lawyer was going to lawyer was going to plead for a full plead for a full plead for a full acquittal or acquittal or acquittal or something like that, which is what something like that, which is what something like that, which is what we expected? we expected? we expected? So one of the motions that So one of the motions that So one of the motions that we knew they would we knew they would we knew they would hear was something hear was something hear was something like a Rule 25, which was like a Rule 25, which was like a Rule 25, which was essentially the essentially the essentially the defense defense defense arguing that an arguing that an acquittal should be sought acquittal should be sought . . . Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. And he has already And he has already And he has already tried to do this several times tried to do this several times tried to do this several times , but he could , but he could , but he could file it again after the file it again after the file it again after the trial is overturned trial is overturned trial is overturned . That's what . That's what . That's what we've come to today. we've come to today. we've come to today. Now, what he Now, what he Now, what he claimed, I don't claimed, I don't claimed, I don't think anyone think anyone think anyone necessarily necessarily necessarily suspected.

suspected. suspected. No, No, No, although Kevin although Kevin although Kevin Reddington, I Reddington, I Reddington, I suspected. Can I suspected. Can I suspected. Can I say that? Like I say that? Like I say that? Like I think what happened was what think what happened was what think what happened was what you thought was you thought was you thought was right, if a right, if a right, if a smart lawyer was smart lawyer was smart lawyer was paying attention to what was paying attention to what was paying attention to what was happening happening happening online, in the online, in the online, in the public, whatever public, whatever public, whatever was true, the was true, the was true, the public would give public would give public would give you a defense if you you a defense if you you a defense if you had a second chance. had a second chance. had a second chance. Absolutely. And what I Absolutely. And what I Absolutely. And what I learned, and I think learned, and I think learned, and I think this is a good place to this is a good place to this is a good place to start, is that in start, is that in start, is that in this dispute, this dispute, this dispute, Reddington said Reddington said Reddington said something like, “ something like, “ Look, we Look, we Look, we actually wanted to have actually wanted to have actually wanted to have two separate two separate two separate trials. We trials. We trials. We wanted the first wanted the first wanted the first trial to be trial to be trial to be about guilt or about guilt or about guilt or innocence, period. innocence, period. innocence, period. Nothing more. And Nothing more. And Nothing more. And then, if we then, if we then, if we continued with this, the continued with this, the continued with this, the second second second trial would be about trial would be about trial would be about whether she was whether she was whether she was criminally criminally criminally responsible? This responsible? This responsible? This was denied, so was denied, so was denied, so they combined them into they combined them into they combined them into one lawsuit. one lawsuit. one lawsuit. So Big Red, So Big Red, So Big Red, as they as they as they call him, Big call him, Big call him, Big Red, Kevin Red, Kevin Red, Kevin Reddington, came up Reddington, came up Reddington, came up and said, “Look, and said, “Look, and said, “Look, you guys put you guys put you guys put us in a position us in a position us in a position where we had to where we had to where we had to fight to not be fight to not be fight to not be criminally criminally criminally liable, which liable, which liable, which essentially meant essentially meant essentially meant we had to we had to we had to plead guilty plead guilty plead guilty to a crime. But we to a crime. But we to a crime. But we wanted two separate wanted two separate wanted two separate trials, and we didn't trials, and we didn't trials, and we didn't get that.

get that. get that. So, this is where we So, this is where we So, this is where we are." "I are." "I think I think I think I understand that." understand that." understand that." Me neither. This Me neither. This Me neither. This was argued months and was argued months and months and months months and months months and months ago, and they did ago, and they did ago, and they did n't really n't really n't really talk about it at the talk about it at the talk about it at the trial itself trial itself trial itself when we got there when we got there when we got there . But that was . But that was . But that was argued before. argued before. argued before. So he kind of So he kind of So he kind of built his built his built his argument on argument on argument on that. But then he that. But then he that. But then he said, “Where is the evidence said, “Where is the evidence said, “Where is the evidence that Lindsay that Lindsay that Lindsay Clancy killed her Clancy killed her Clancy killed her children?” “Because there is none children?” “Because there is none . It was a terrible . It was a terrible . It was a terrible investigation. She investigation. She investigation. She never actually never actually never actually admitted it. And admitted it. And admitted it. And remember, the whole point of remember, the whole point of remember, the whole point of this was this was this was Lindsay Lindsay Lindsay confessing to her confessing to her confessing to her team. They team. They team. They agreed with the facts of the agreed with the facts of the agreed with the facts of the case that she case that she case that she did it. So I want to did it. So I want to did it. So I want to show a short show a short show a short excerpt from excerpt from excerpt from Kevin Reddington's Kevin Reddington's Kevin Reddington's court appearance during the hearing court appearance during the hearing . . . Where is this confession? Where does Where is this confession? Where does Where is this confession? Where does she say she she say she she say she did that? And what's did that? And what's did that? And what's most telling is that most telling is that most telling is that when when when she came out of this she came out of this she came out of this apparent coma that apparent coma that apparent coma that she was in, she was in, she was in, when she came out of when she came out of when she came out of it, we had already heard it, we had already heard it, we had already heard testimony from a psychiatrist testimony from a psychiatrist testimony from a psychiatrist from Brigham and from Brigham and from Brigham and Women's Hospital. She was told Women's Hospital. She was told Women's Hospital. She was told what happened. She did what happened. She did what happened. She did n't remember anything n't remember anything n't remember anything about what happened. That's what about what happened. That's what I said.

I said. I think he was I think he was I think he was eavesdropping on me eavesdropping on me eavesdropping on me because all because all because all this time this time this time when people were, and I when people were, and I when people were, and I know we're know we're know we're going to talk going to talk going to talk about Patrick's interview about Patrick's interview , because people had a , because people had a , because people had a lot to say lot to say lot to say about our thoughts on about our thoughts on about our thoughts on this. Yes. This whole this. Yes. This whole this. Yes. This whole time, I time, I time, I mean, I...I have no mean, I...I have no mean, I...I have no idea if Patrick... idea if Patrick... I mean...and I I mean...and I I mean...and I was actually was actually was actually one of those hard-nosed one of those hard-nosed one of those hard-nosed people who...like, "No, people who...like, "No, people who...like, "No, really?" She really?" She really?" She confesses, as if confesses, as if confesses, as if admitting in court that admitting in court that admitting in court that she did it. It's not she did it. It's not she did it. It's not sanity or, you know, sanity or, you know, sanity or, you know, reason based on reason based on reason based on sanity and guilt or sanity and guilt or sanity and guilt or innocence. It's not a innocence. It's not a innocence. It's not a question of who question of who question of who did it. Like, that's not a did it. Like, that's not a did it. Like, that's not a question. And I said, question. And I said, question. And I said, but people are like, "Oh, but but people are like, "Oh, but but people are like, "Oh, but that's weird, and that's weird, and that's weird, and that's weird, and that's weird, and that's weird, and that's weird." And I thought that's weird." And I thought : here's one question that : here's one question that : here's one question that I've never had I've never had I've never had an answer to, as far as an answer to, as far as an answer to, as far as I could find. And it I could find. And it I could find. And it was always like this: did was always like this: did was always like this: did she wake up in the she wake up in the she wake up in the hospital and say, "Oh hospital and say, "Oh hospital and say, "Oh my God, I killed my God, I killed my God, I killed my children." Or did she my children." Or did she my children." Or did she wake up in wake up in wake up in the hospital and someone the hospital and someone the hospital and someone said to her, "Oh my God said to her, "Oh my God , you killed your children , you killed your children ." This was never ." This was never ." This was never clear. clear. Still? Still? It. This is what it looks like It. This is what it looks like . I mean, . I mean, . I mean, Reddington says, " Reddington says, " Look, she Look, she Look, she actually actually actually misremembered the misremembered the crime scene." She had a crime scene." She had a misremembering of misremembering of misremembering of something about something about something about the screen and how it the screen and how it the screen and how it happened, such as happened, such as happened, such as the screen in the window, because she the screen in the window, because she the screen in the window, because she jumped out of the window jumped out of the window jumped out of the window to try to to try to to try to commit commit commit suicide, as the suicide, as the suicide, as the evidence shows.” And evidence shows.” And evidence shows.” And he says, “Look, he says, “Look, he says, “Look, she doesn’t even she doesn’t even she doesn’t even remember it, and remember it, and remember it, and she never fully she never fully she never fully admitted to admitted to admitted to it. So, like, he it. So, like, he it. So, like, he demands that she be found demands that she be found demands that she be found innocent of what innocent of what innocent of what he claims here.

he claims here. he claims here. He says there's He says there's He says there's really just really just really just not enough evidence not enough evidence not enough evidence to prove she to prove she to prove she did it." And then did it." And then did it." And then he moves on. He says: he moves on. He says: "First of all, this "First of all, this "First of all, this investigation, the investigation, the investigation, the police police police investigation, is investigation, is investigation, is terrible." He says: "There terrible." He says: "There wasn't even an wasn't even an wasn't even an investigation." I investigation." I investigation." I mean, he, like, mean, he, like, mean, he, like, put it out to the police. First of all put it out to the police. First of all , this. Second, , this. Second, , this. Second, he called the DNA in he called the DNA in he called the DNA in the case woefully the case woefully the case woefully inadequate. There is a inadequate. There is a inadequate. There is a problem with DNA on problem with DNA on problem with DNA on sports tapes. sports tapes. sports tapes. Patrick's DNA is on Patrick's DNA is on Patrick's DNA is on the tapes, the children are there, the tapes, the children are there, the tapes, the children are there, Lindsay is there. They are lacking. Lindsay is there. They are lacking. Lindsay is there. They are lacking. They are at home. That's right They are at home. That's right , exactly. But then , exactly. But then , exactly. But then he also talks he also talks he also talks about time frames. And I about time frames. And I about time frames. And I think that's where think that's where think that's where the conversation that the conversation that the conversation that surrounded Patrick surrounded Patrick surrounded Patrick Clancy during the trial began. Clancy during the trial began. Clancy during the trial began. I was curious that I was curious that I was curious that Reddington actually Reddington actually Reddington actually delved into this. So delved into this. So delved into this. So he basically said that he basically said that he basically said that the time frames don't the time frames don't the time frames don't match and are, quote, " match and are, quote, " ridiculous" because ridiculous" because ridiculous" because Patrick left the house, Patrick left the house, Patrick left the house, sent a supposedly sent a supposedly sent a supposedly work work work email from...he couldn't email from...he couldn't email from...he couldn't remember if it was from remember if it was from remember if it was from his phone or his his phone or his his phone or his home laptop home laptop home laptop at 5:24, which is what at 5:24, which is what at 5:24, which is what Reddington is talking about Reddington is talking about Reddington is talking about here. Then he went here. Then he went here. Then he went to CVS, went to a to CVS, went to a to CVS, went to a restaurant. By the time restaurant. By the time restaurant. By the time Patrick reportedly Patrick reportedly returned home and returned home and found Lindsay, found Lindsay, found Lindsay, her body temperature her body temperature her body temperature was already 82°. It was a was already 82°. It was a was already 82°. It was a huge deal. A huge deal. A huge deal. A huge deal, huge deal, huge deal, which Reddington which Reddington which Reddington says here too: "Hey, look, it's says here too: "Hey, look, it's says here too: "Hey, look, it's going to take hours going to take hours going to take hours for her for her for her body temperature to drop to body temperature to drop to body temperature to drop to this." So he's saying this." So he's saying this." So he's saying that the timeframe that that the timeframe that that the timeframe that was suggested was suggested was suggested through Patrick, through the through Patrick, through the through Patrick, through the prosecution, doesn't make prosecution, doesn't make prosecution, doesn't make sense in sense in sense in terms of Lindsay having terms of Lindsay having terms of Lindsay having had enough time to had enough time to had enough time to do this, to do this, to do this, to be outside be outside be outside and to have and to have and to have her body temperature taken her body temperature taken her body temperature taken at that level...

at that level... at that level... Yeah, to get to the Yeah, to get to the Yeah, to get to the level that level that level that her body was at. her body was at. her body was at. So he actually So he actually So he actually mentioned some of the mentioned some of the mentioned some of the things that people on things that people on things that people on the internet were talking about the internet were talking about the internet were talking about as possible as possible as possible inconsistencies. inconsistencies. inconsistencies. Some may perceive Some may perceive Some may perceive his words as his words as his words as mocking Patrick. mocking Patrick. mocking Patrick. I don't think that was the I don't think that was the I don't think that was the case. I think his case. I think his case. I think his strategy with strategy with strategy with the client is to the client is to the client is to say, " say, " You need to You need to You need to rule on this rule on this rule on this motion that motion that motion that requires justification." requires justification." I think it I think it I think it was all a strategy, but was all a strategy, but was all a strategy, but it certainly it certainly it certainly took into account what took into account what took into account what everyone was talking about and what they were everyone was talking about and what they were everyone was talking about and what they were noticing. The questions noticing. The questions noticing. The questions that you had, that you had, that you had, the questions that the questions that the questions that criminal criminal criminal drug addicts in general had, drug addicts in general had, drug addicts in general had, as well as the public. as well as the public. as well as the public. He definitely took that into account He definitely took that into account . It's interesting that he . It's interesting that he . It's interesting that he took it, I want to took it, I want to took it, I want to call it a call it a call it a 180-degree turn, but 180-degree turn, but 180-degree turn, but this departure from the topic this departure from the topic this departure from the topic seemed like a seemed like a seemed like a 180-degree turn to me 180-degree turn to me 180-degree turn to me , whereas all , whereas all , whereas all I really I really I really understood before was that understood before was that understood before was that she admitted that she admitted that she admitted that she did it. It's she did it. It's she did it. It's just a matter of what state of mind just a matter of what state of mind just a matter of what state of mind she was in she was in she was in when she when she when she did it. Now I did it. Now I did it. Now I understand that understand that understand that they previously wanted two they previously wanted two they previously wanted two separate separate separate trials. I don't think this is a trials. I don't think this is a trials. I don't think this is a 180 180 180 degree turn. Maybe degree turn. Maybe degree turn. Maybe 90 degrees. At 90 degrees. At 90 degrees. At 90 degrees. Yes, I would 90 degrees. Yes, I would 90 degrees. Yes, I would say that's say that's say that's right, and I think that's why right, and I think that's why right, and I think that's why he he he broke it today.

broke it today. broke it today. So, he says, right? And So, he says, right? And So, he says, right? And it's kind of, I it's kind of, I it's kind of, I mean, it was kind of a mean, it was kind of a sensational thing, like, "Where's sensational thing, like, "Where's the evidence that she did the evidence that she did the evidence that she did n't do it?" He n't do it?" He answered quite convincingly. Then there's the accusation that I accusation that I think we think we think we should also point out is that should also point out is that should also point out is that they got rid of the they got rid of the they got rid of the hair bows. hair bows. hair bows. Oh, finally. Oh, finally. Oh, finally. Bow and sock outward. Bow and sock outward. Bow and sock outward. Um, I think they Um, I think they Um, I think they saw, uh, I think saw, uh, I think saw, uh, I think they saw online they saw online conversations about it. So, conversations about it. So, conversations about it. So, no bows. They no bows. They no bows. They come up and say, " come up and say, " Hmm, this is the first time Hmm, this is the first time Hmm, this is the first time Reddington has claimed there's Reddington has claimed there's Reddington has claimed there's no no no evidence that she evidence that she evidence that she did this." We have never did this." We have never did this." We have never heard such an heard such an heard such an argument before in this argument before in this argument before in this court. And we court. And we court. And we argue that there is argue that there is argue that there is {quote} an overwhelming {quote} an overwhelming {quote} an overwhelming amount of evidence amount of evidence amount of evidence that she was that she was that she was responsible for these responsible for these responsible for these crimes.” And they crimes.” And they crimes.” And they gave several gave several gave several examples. They examples. They examples. They said she was the said she was the said she was the only one home only one home only one home at the time. For example, at the time. For example, at the time. For example, Patrick was seen on Patrick was seen on surveillance footage at a surveillance footage at a 3V restaurant and CVS. He 3V restaurant and CVS. He 3V restaurant and CVS. He couldn't be there. He couldn't be there. He couldn't be there. He wasn't there. No one wasn't there. No one wasn't there. No one else was home. else was home. Is part of Is part of Redington's argument that it didn't Redington's argument that it didn't Redington's argument that it didn't happen happen happen when they say when they say when they say it did? it did? it did? I think it's more I think it's more I think it's more about about about the chronology of when the chronology of when the chronology of when he was absent, and there he was absent, and there he was absent, and there were some were some were some inconsistencies there that inconsistencies there that inconsistencies there that could be could be could be taken as meaning that taken as meaning that taken as meaning that Lindsay wouldn't have had Lindsay wouldn't have had Lindsay wouldn't have had enough time to enough time to enough time to commit these crimes.

commit these crimes. commit these crimes. So, it's a little So, it's a little So, it's a little vague. It's vague. It's vague. It's a little unclear there, but a little unclear there, but a little unclear there, but they say, " they say, " Look, she was the Look, she was the Look, she was the only one home at the only one home at the only one home at the time." Patrick went to the time." Patrick went to the time." Patrick went to the places places places Lindsay pointed him to. Lindsay pointed him to. Lindsay pointed him to. She wanted him to She wanted him to She wanted him to leave the house. She leave the house. She leave the house. She told him to go get told him to go get told him to go get medicine and food. That's exactly what medicine and food. That's exactly what medicine and food. That's exactly what she did, and she did, and she did, and her phone records her phone records confirmed it." And they confirmed it." And they also claim that also claim that also claim that her blood is on the her blood is on the her blood is on the expanders. So those expanders. So those expanders. So those were some of the were some of the were some of the examples of examples of examples of them saying, "No, them saying, "No, them saying, "No, she did it." But she did it." But she did it." But they also say that they also say that they also say that all the facts all the facts all the facts confirm confirm confirm deliberate measurement and deliberate measurement and deliberate measurement and cruelty. And they cruelty. And they cruelty. And they also also also talked again about her state of talked again about her state of talked again about her state of mind at the mind at the mind at the time and what the time and what the time and what the evidence shows. So evidence shows. So evidence shows. So I want to listen to an I want to listen to an I want to listen to an excerpt from what the excerpt from what the excerpt from what the prosecution prosecution prosecution said during the said during the said during the hearing. hearing. hearing. She was She was She was frustrated with the system she frustrated with the system she was dealing with. was dealing with. was dealing with. She was She was She was disappointed with disappointed with disappointed with the results she was the results she was the results she was getting and getting and getting and gave in to the idea that she gave in to the idea that she gave in to the idea that she didn't want to be didn't want to be didn't want to be here anymore, that she here anymore, that she here anymore, that she was going to commit was going to commit was going to commit suicide, and suicide, and suicide, and that she would take these that she would take these that she would take these children with her because children with her because children with her because no one could no one could no one could take care of them like take care of them like take care of them like she could. She didn't she could. She didn't she could. She didn't want them to want them to want them to suffer. All of this is suffer. All of this is suffer. All of this is based on statements based on statements based on statements she made not in she made not in she made not in the context of her the context of her the context of her first interview, but at first interview, but at first interview, but at different times through different times through different times through different people.

different people. different people. I find it quite I find it quite I find it quite interesting because they interesting because they interesting because they also raised the also raised the also raised the issue of issue of issue of altruistic altruistic altruistic infanticide, and they infanticide, and they infanticide, and they said that this is the motive, said that this is the motive, said that this is the motive, which is the killing of a which is the killing of a which is the killing of a child by a parent who child by a parent who child by a parent who sincerely believes that it is in the sincerely believes that it is in the sincerely believes that it is in the best interests of the best interests of the best interests of the child. So child. So child. So the prosecution says, " the prosecution says, " Look, no." We have Look, no." We have Look, no." We have a lot of evidence that a lot of evidence that a lot of evidence that she did it, she did it, she did it, she planned it, she planned it, she planned it, she knew what she was doing she knew what she was doing ." ." ." They say she They say she They say she wanted to wanted to wanted to commit commit commit suicide so badly, whatever suicide so badly, whatever suicide so badly, whatever mental state it would mental state it would mental state it would put her in, put her in, put her in, um... um... um... that she killed her that she killed her that she killed her children because she didn't want children because she didn't want children because she didn't want anyone else, like anyone else, like anyone else, like she didn't think she didn't think she didn't think anyone else could anyone else could anyone else could take care of them. So take care of them. So take care of them. So she says, "If I'm she says, "If I'm she says, "If I'm not here, not here, not here, you won't be here either. you won't be here either. you won't be here either. " This is exactly what " This is exactly what " This is exactly what their their their argument looked like, this is exactly the argument looked like, this is exactly the argument looked like, this is exactly the direction they were direction they were direction they were moving in. And, essentially, moving in. And, essentially, moving in. And, essentially, they were asking themselves, they were asking themselves, they were asking themselves, "Listen, why is "Listen, why is "Listen, why is Reddington Reddington Reddington changing course now?" So changing course now?" So changing course now?" So the judge replied, " the judge replied, " Okay, listen to Okay, listen to Okay, listen to both sides." "I both sides." "I both sides." "I will take both will take both will take both sides to sides to sides to counseling." “We don't counseling." “We don't counseling." “We don't know whether he will know whether he will know whether he will rule on this rule on this rule on this issue at the hearing on issue at the hearing on issue at the hearing on November 2, or whether he will make November 2, or whether he will make November 2, or whether he will make any decision before any decision before any decision before then. Another then. Another then. Another motion they motion they motion they heard concerned heard concerned heard concerned jury notes and jury notes and jury notes and sidebar discussions sidebar discussions sidebar discussions . And this obviously . And this obviously becomes extremely becomes extremely becomes extremely important because we're important because we're important because we're talking about this talking about this talking about this one juror one juror one juror who's abstaining.

who's abstaining. who's abstaining. So, the defense wants So, the defense wants So, the defense wants these recordings, these recordings, these recordings, the notes they took, and the the notes they took, and the the notes they took, and the sidebar to become sidebar to become sidebar to become publicly available. publicly available. publicly available. So when the parties So when the parties So when the parties approach the judge and approach the judge and approach the judge and they turn on the white they turn on the white they turn on the white noise, you can't hear it. noise, you can't hear it. noise, you can't hear it. They want them to They want them to They want them to be be be publicly available publicly available publicly available now so we can now so we can now so we can hear what they hear what they hear what they talked about when it talked about when it talked about when it comes to the comes to the comes to the jury. And the defense, jury. And the defense, jury. And the defense, I find it interesting, I find it interesting, I find it interesting, indicated that their indicated that their indicated that their team might team might team might want to use want to use want to use some of this evidence in some of this evidence in some of this evidence in their motion their motion their motion to dismiss the case, to dismiss the case, to dismiss the case, and they won't hear and they won't hear and they won't hear it until November 2nd. So, it until November 2nd. So, it until November 2nd. So, I think they want to I think they want to I think they want to use some of use some of use some of this evidence, if this evidence, if this evidence, if the judge provides it, to the judge provides it, to the judge provides it, to make their make their make their point. But, I point. But, I point. But, I actually think the actually think the actually think the Commonwealth had a Commonwealth had a Commonwealth had a very interesting very interesting very interesting rebuttal on this rebuttal on this rebuttal on this . They . They . They got…” got…” got…” up there, and they up there, and they up there, and they said, “This said, “This said, “This can’t happen.” Not can’t happen.” Not can’t happen.” Not just in this case, just in this case, just in this case, but like, what person but like, what person but like, what person would want to serve would want to serve would want to serve on a jury again in the on a jury again in the on a jury again in the Commonwealth of Commonwealth of Commonwealth of Massachusetts if Massachusetts if Massachusetts if all their notes, everything all their notes, everything all their notes, everything that was discussed, that was discussed, that was discussed, like, if all of this like, if all of this like, if all of this was just put was just put was just put to a public to a public to a public vote, whereas vote, whereas vote, whereas we usually we usually we usually protect our protect our protect our jurors at all jurors at all jurors at all costs? And this was costs? And this was costs? And this was different. different. Yes. I think I see Yes. I think I see something different about it, in that something different about it, in that something different about it, in that it didn't just it didn't just it didn't just end and the defense end and the defense end and the defense didn't say, "Oh, I'm didn't say, "Oh, I'm didn't say, "Oh, I'm upset about the decision."

upset about the decision." upset about the decision." I'm going to take I'm going to take I'm going to take this apart." this apart." this apart." Of course. Even before Of course. Even before Of course. Even before they made they made they made that decision, the that decision, the that decision, the jurors were coming out and jurors were coming out and jurors were coming out and saying, "Listen, saying, "Listen, saying, "Listen, the rules that we the rules that we the rules that we have to have to have to follow, the way follow, the way follow, the way this is supposed to work, it's this is supposed to work, it's this is supposed to work, it's not happening." What not happening." What not happening." What happens then? happens then? happens then? Well, if you're Well, if you're Well, if you're raising a flag, I do raising a flag, I do raising a flag, I do n't know that I am, and n't know that I am, and n't know that I am, and maybe I'm not a constitutional lawyer maybe I'm not a constitutional lawyer , but I just don't , but I just don't think it's a bad thing think it's a bad thing think it's a bad thing to take something apart if there to take something apart if there to take something apart if there 's a concern, not 's a concern, not 's a concern, not about how you about how you about how you voted, but about voted, but about voted, but about whether whether or not you followed the rules. Because if or not you followed the rules. Because if we don't follow we don't follow we don't follow the rules, that's my the rules, that's my the rules, that's my problem with the world problem with the world problem with the world right now. If there is no right now. If there is no right now. If there is no right and right and right and wrong, wrong, wrong, truth and other truth and other truth and other rules, what do we do? rules, what do we do? rules, what do we do? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. What, have I gone crazy? What, have I gone crazy? What, have I gone crazy? And no, and that's exactly what the And no, and that's exactly what the And no, and that's exactly what the defense is claiming. defense is claiming. defense is claiming. They say, " They say, " Listen, we Listen, we Listen, we should have access should have access should have access to this if that's the case to this if that's the case ." I think the problem, ." I think the problem, ." I think the problem, and what the judge and what the judge and what the judge needs to figure out, needs to figure out, needs to figure out, is that is that is that one camp of people is saying they have one camp of people is saying they have doubts. doubts. doubts. There are jurors, other There are jurors, other There are jurors, other jurors, and several jurors, and several jurors, and several people have come forward and people have come forward and people have come forward and spoken out on various spoken out on various spoken out on various media outlets, saying, media outlets, saying, "Listen, no, he "Listen, no, he "Listen, no, he expressed doubt." But expressed doubt." But expressed doubt." But then you have his then you have his then you have his team, the only team, the only team, the only juror juror juror left left left untried, and his untried, and his untried, and his name is Michael Derosier, and name is Michael Derosier, and name is Michael Derosier, and he came out and named he came out and named he came out and named himself because he, himself because he, himself because he, you know, was effectively you know, was effectively you know, was effectively forced to.

forced to. forced to. He seemed to have to. I have a problem with this He seemed to have to. I have a problem with this . . This is a problem. This is a problem. This is a problem. Right. And I think that's what the Right. And I think that's what the Commonwealth is heading towards. Is this Commonwealth is heading towards. Is this just further just further just further exposing him when exposing him when exposing him when he didn't need to he didn't need to he didn't need to ? The defense ? The defense ? The defense says it's necessary. The says it's necessary. The says it's necessary. The judge has many cases to judge has many cases to decide, such as decide, such as where to go next. And that's where to go next. And that's where to go next. And that's definitely not what we definitely not what we definitely not what we usually see in the usually see in the usually see in the case. I mean, case. I mean, I've never seen I've never seen I've never seen so much controversy so much controversy so much controversy over the jury at over the jury at over the jury at the end of a case. And I want to the end of a case. And I want to the end of a case. And I want to dig into that a little bit dig into that a little bit dig into that a little bit , because after the , because after the , because after the trial was canceled, trial was canceled, trial was canceled, it it it took shape a little bit. And took shape a little bit. And took shape a little bit. And the Commonwealth in court the Commonwealth in court the Commonwealth in court today looked as today looked as today looked as if if a multitude of things had been said outside this courtroom a multitude of things had been said outside this courtroom that affect this that affect this that affect this case. And it's kind of like how case. And it's kind of like how Reddington Reddington and Michael's lawyers are and Michael's lawyers are and Michael's lawyers are exchanging statements exchanging statements exchanging statements on social media on social media on social media and so on. I think it has to do and so on. I think it has to do and so on. I think it has to do with the way with the way with the way juries are selected, juries are selected, juries are selected, the way the way the way juries are selected now, the way that once juries are selected now, the way that once juries are selected now, the way that once we we we knew there was one who was knew there was one who was knew there was one who was resisting, we resisting, we resisting, we should never have should never have should never have known that he had known that he had known that he had defected to defected to defected to begin with. But the jury begin with. But the jury begin with. But the jury didn't know when they didn't know when they didn't know when they gave that note to gave that note to gave that note to the judge and said the judge and said the judge and said one person didn't one person didn't one person didn't follow the law of follow the law of follow the law of reasonable doubt that reasonable doubt that reasonable doubt that we would have known that then we would have known that then we would have known that then . So then . So then . So then these jurors these jurors these jurors came out on NBC Boston, WBZ came out on NBC Boston, WBZ came out on NBC Boston, WBZ and ABC News and said, "No and ABC News and said, "No , he had doubts , he had doubts ." They came out and ." They came out and ." They came out and said, “He also said, “He also said, “He also used used used exercise bands and exercise bands and exercise bands and simulated choking simulated choking simulated choking with a water bottle. "It with a water bottle. "It with a water bottle. "It was very strange." We was very strange." We was very strange." We will find out all this.

will find out all this. will find out all this. Then one of those Then one of those Then one of those jurors went on jurors went on jurors went on CBS Mornings and revealed that CBS Mornings and revealed that CBS Mornings and revealed that he was a black he was a black he was a black man. And it has man. And it has man. And it has nothing to do with the nothing to do with the nothing to do with the case, but it case, but it case, but it additionally led additionally led additionally led to his to his to his identification. As if identification. As if identification. As if he didn't come forward after he didn't come forward after he didn't come forward after that and say: " that and say: " Because there were several Because there were several Because there were several men there." They men there." They men there." They could say could say could say man. man. man. Right. He was the Right. He was the Right. He was the only black only black only black man on the field. man on the field. man on the field. He was the only He was the only He was the only black black black man. NBC man. NBC man. NBC Boston then released an article Boston then released an article Boston then released an article reporting that reporting that reporting that he had previously he had previously he had previously been been been charged with charged with charged with domestic domestic domestic violence along with violence along with violence along with his ex- his ex- his ex- wife. They were wife. They were wife. They were rejected, but rejected, but rejected, but considered, do we considered, do we considered, do we investigate every investigate every investigate every juror? And, according to juror? And, according to juror? And, according to NBC Boston, he NBC Boston, he NBC Boston, he also has a current also has a current also has a current restraining order from his restraining order from his restraining order from his nephew. Then they nephew. Then they nephew. Then they asked, “Do you asked, “Do you asked, “Do you investigate every investigate every investigate every juror?” Is this juror?” Is this juror?” Is this considered considered considered juror doxing? juror doxing? juror doxing? There was a There was a There was a whole drama on the internet about whether it was whole drama on the internet about whether it was normal that all normal that all normal that all this information this information this information appeared after the appeared after the appeared after the trial was canceled trial was canceled trial was canceled . And now . And now . And now she gets caught up in these she gets caught up in these she gets caught up in these pleas. So I don't pleas. So I don't pleas. So I don't know. From your know. From your know. From your perspective, the fact that, perspective, the fact that, first of all, he was actually first of all, he was actually first of all, he was actually forced to confess and forced to confess and forced to confess and say that he is say that he is say that he is who I am, but did who I am, but did who I am, but did he follow the he follow the he follow the law? What is your law? What is your law? What is your position?

position? position? I mean, I I mean, I I mean, I think he should have been forced to think he should have been forced to think he should have been forced to confess. I mean confess. I mean confess. I mean , I find it , I find it , I find it interesting that I get a interesting that I get a interesting that I get a certain certain certain collective collective collective mindset when you think mindset when you think mindset when you think about the jury, and I about the jury, and I about the jury, and I like the fact like the fact like the fact that they were the that they were the reason we reason we knew who he was, not knew who he was, not knew who he was, not just someone who was just someone who was just someone who was behind a keyboard. behind a keyboard. behind a keyboard. Do you understand what I mean? Do you understand what I mean? Do you understand what I mean? They think it's an They think it's an They think it's an interesting concept for me interesting concept for me interesting concept for me . I'm . I'm . I'm not even saying it's not even saying it's not even saying it's right. But I don't right. But I don't right. But I don't like it, I'm like it, I'm investigating them all again. investigating them all again. You don't even You don't even You don't even have to look have to look have to look at just this one at just this one at just this one guy. But that's exactly how guy. But that's exactly how guy. But that's exactly how I feel. I feel. I feel. Let's go through Let's go through Let's go through all their phones. all their phones. all their phones. Let's Let's Let's make sure make sure make sure they follow the they follow the they follow the rules. We can't rules. We can't rules. We can't do it every time, but do it every time, but do it every time, but we rely on we rely on people to be people to be people to be honest. And when we honest. And when we honest. And when we ask them questions ask them questions ask them questions under oath, under oath, under oath, like, "Can like, "Can like, "Can you be you be you be impartial if impartial if impartial if you have reasonable you have reasonable you have reasonable doubt?" and they doubt?" and they doubt?" and they say, "Yes." say, "Yes." say, "Yes." For example, if there are no For example, if there are no For example, if there are no consequences consequences consequences if you lie. What I do if you lie. What I do if you lie. What I do n't understand is n't understand is n't understand is why. We have spares for a reason why. We have spares for a reason why. We have spares for a reason . It's like . It's like . It's like we don't even we don't even we don't even need to be here. need to be here. need to be here. Why was there such Why was there such Why was there such hesitation about hesitation about hesitation about appointing a appointing a appointing a reserve juror reserve juror ? ? ? This is what the defense wanted, This is what the defense wanted, This is what the defense wanted, but the judge said, "No. but the judge said, "No. " " " But look where we are But look where we are But look where we are now.

now. now. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So, I...don't know. It's a shame So, I...don't know. It's a shame So, I...don't know. It's a shame I don't have more I don't have more I don't have more legal knowledge to legal knowledge to legal knowledge to truly truly truly express myself. What I express myself. What I express myself. What I definitely agree with you on is that definitely agree with you on is that definitely agree with you on is that if you're if you're if you're going to going to going to investigate a investigate a investigate a juror who juror who juror who abstains abstains abstains , then all of them. , then all of them. , then all of them. You must You must You must investigate them all. investigate them all. investigate them all. Also, why do we have Also, why do we have Also, why do we have phones during phones during phones during meetings? meetings? meetings? Oh, God. And when I Oh, God. And when I Oh, God. And when I saw this, I thought: " saw this, I thought: " Wait, I thought Wait, I thought ... I guess I don't know ... I guess I don't know ... I guess I don't know why I thought that." I've why I thought that." I've why I thought that." I've never been on a never been on a never been on a jury, but I jury, but I jury, but I thought, "Sometimes you thought, "Sometimes you thought, "Sometimes you can't even have a can't even have a can't even have a phone, like at school." phone, like at school." phone, like at school." Why can't we just Why can't we just Why can't we just be..." be..." be..." To me, a trip like this To me, a trip like this To me, a trip like this triples triples triples the risk of stumbling upon the risk of stumbling upon the risk of stumbling upon something that pops up something that pops up something that pops up on your phone on your phone on your phone regarding the case. Especially regarding the case. Especially regarding the case. Especially in a case of such in a case of such in a case of such resonance. It's like resonance. It's like resonance. It's like I understand that you I understand that you I understand that you can't isolate them. can't isolate them. can't isolate them. Agree. Agree. Agree. Given their Given their Given their phone after all, but that's phone after all, but that's phone after all, but that's what...It was what...It was what...It was so strange to me. Are we so strange to me. Are we so strange to me. Are we discussing or discussing or discussing or playing Candy Crush? playing Candy Crush? playing Candy Crush? The jury is still out on The jury is still out on The jury is still out on this one. this one. this one. But I also thought it was a But I also thought it was a But I also thought it was a strange situation. strange situation. strange situation. So I would like to So I would like to So I would like to learn more about learn more about learn more about when we can and when we can and when we can and cannot have our cannot have our cannot have our phones during the phones during the phones during the discussion. So, to discussion. So, to discussion. So, to say all this at the say all this at the say all this at the hearing, we had to hearing, we had to hearing, we had to find out, or we find out, or we find out, or we thought we would find out thought we would find out , if there would be a new , if there would be a new , if there would be a new trial? And trial? And trial? And the answer is: I don't the answer is: I don't the answer is: I don't know. So the judge is already know. So the judge is already know. So the judge is already tired of tired of tired of how long this is how long this is how long this is going on. So he going on. So he going on. So he stood up and said, stood up and said, stood up and said, okay, let's okay, let's okay, let's pick a new date. Both pick a new date. Both pick a new date. Both the prosecution and the prosecution and the prosecution and the defense essentially the defense essentially the defense essentially agreed that they were agreed that they were agreed that they were not ready for this. And not ready for this. And not ready for this. And the judge said to them, " the judge said to them, " Excuse me, after this Excuse me, after this mistrial, you all mistrial, you all said, 'Let's said, 'Let's said, 'Let's move on to a new move on to a new move on to a new trial

trial trial in a week.'" Let's go in a week.'" Let's go ." What has changed here? And ." What has changed here? And ." What has changed here? And the Commission said: " the Commission said: " Actually, we didn't Actually, we didn't Actually, we didn't say that." And Reddington say that." And Reddington say that." And Reddington said. Redington was said. Redington was said. Redington was excited, excited, excited, ready to return ready to return ready to return to court. They want to to court. They want to to court. They want to have enough time have enough time have enough time to consider everything. to consider everything. to consider everything. They want to know what's They want to know what's They want to know what's happening with the happening with the happening with the petitions. So you've petitions. So you've petitions. So you've already made a decision already made a decision already made a decision on the motions before you on the motions before you on the motions before you know where the know where the know where the case will go case will go case will go next. next. next. And I also imagine that And I also imagine that And I also imagine that the prosecution, the prosecution, the prosecution, at least they, I mean at least they, I mean at least they, I mean they say they're a little they say they're a little they say they're a little surprised by surprised by surprised by Reddington's approach. And so Reddington's approach. And so Reddington's approach. And so they probably they probably they probably think that if we think that if we think that if we go back, we'll have a go back, we'll have a completely different game ahead of us. completely different game ahead of us. And I think that's And I think that's And I think that's right too. So, this and right too. So, this and right too. So, this and this happened right this happened right this happened right before before before you and I started recording. This is you and I started recording. This is you and I started recording. This is actually where we actually where we actually where we were. So Judge were. So Judge were. So Judge Sullivan said something Sullivan said something Sullivan said something like: okay. like: okay. There will be a hearing on November 2nd where we where we where we will consider all of will consider all of will consider all of these motions, you these motions, you these motions, you better be ready better be ready better be ready to pick a to pick a to pick a trial date. And at trial date. And at trial date. And at about the 11th about the 11th about the 11th hour of this hour of this hour of this hearing, Redington hearing, Redington hearing, Redington said, okay, but I said, okay, but I said, okay, but I won't be ready until won't be ready until won't be ready until June 2027. I can't June 2027. I can't June 2027. I can't go to court go to court go to court before June. And before June. And before June. And then the judge said, " then the judge said, " We'll hear it, we'll We'll hear it, we'll We'll hear it, we'll hear it at the hear it at the hear it at the hearing on November 2, hearing on November 2, hearing on November 2, just wait." This just wait." This just wait." This was the end. That was the was the end. That was the was the end. That was the end of the hearing.

end of the hearing. end of the hearing. After the hearing, After the hearing, After the hearing, District Attorney District Attorney District Attorney Tim Cruz came out and Tim Cruz came out and Tim Cruz came out and spoke to the media and spoke to the media and spoke to the media and said, “We’re going to said, “We’re going to said, “We’re going to act as if there’s a act as if there’s a act as if there’s a second second second trial. But we won't trial. But we won't say now that there will say now that there will definitely be a definitely be a definitely be a retrial. We do retrial. We do retrial. We do n't know about the n't know about the n't know about the charges. We charges. We charges. We need to know what need to know what need to know what happens with these happens with these happens with these motions that are motions that are motions that are being heard by the judge being heard by the judge being heard by the judge before we can before we can before we can tell tell tell you specifically what will happen. you specifically what will happen. you specifically what will happen. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, essentially, we don't So, essentially, we don't So, essentially, we don't know. And it was a know. And it was a know. And it was a lot, but I lot, but I lot, but I feel like we feel like we learned a lot. We were learned a lot. We were dedicated to new dedicated to new dedicated to new information that we had not information that we had not information that we had not heard. heard. heard. Yes. Yes. Yes. But in reality, nothing has But in reality, nothing has But in reality, nothing has changed. Nothing changed. Nothing changed. Nothing was taken out. We did was taken out. We did was taken out. We did n't have any decisions n't have any decisions n't have any decisions until November. No until November. No until November. No solutions. And so, that was kind of the solutions. And so, that was kind of the solutions. And so, that was kind of the gist of gist of gist of everything that I everything that I everything that I think has happened since the think has happened since the trial was canceled, trial was canceled, which I think which I think which I think was 5 months ago, was 5 months ago, was 5 months ago, but it was actually but it was actually but it was actually about 3.5 weeks ago and about 3.5 weeks ago and about 3.5 weeks ago and up until now. We also have the up until now. We also have the up until now. We also have the whole whole whole Patrick Clancy discussion... Patrick Clancy discussion... Patrick Clancy discussion... Mmm... Mmm... Mmm... and the "60 Minutes" interview and the "60 Minutes" interview and the "60 Minutes" interview that you and I, uh, that you and I, uh, that you and I, uh, watched together, but watched together, but watched together, but as a long- as a long- as a long- distance date. It was distance date. It was distance date. It was like a long- like a long- like a long- distance date. distance date. distance date. You and Brian watched You and Brian watched You and Brian watched it in Indiana, and I it in Indiana, and I it in Indiana, and I watched it in Arizona. We watched it in Arizona. We watched it in Arizona. We watched at the same time.

watched at the same time. watched at the same time. Yes, and it seems to me Yes, and it seems to me Yes, and it seems to me that everyone was that everyone was that everyone was somehow confused after that. I somehow confused after that. I somehow confused after that. I want to clarify, I don't want to clarify, I don't want to clarify, I don't think Patrick think Patrick think Patrick did this with what was did this with what was did this with what was presented to me. presented to me. presented to me. Me too. I think people are Me too. I think people are Me too. I think people are distorting distorting distorting information. Yeah, that's like information. Yeah, that's like information. Yeah, that's like me, but I insist that me, but I insist that me, but I insist that I think it was a I think it was a I think it was a terrible interview terrible interview terrible interview because I don't know what the point was because I don't know what the point was because I don't know what the point was because because because I think there's a I think there's a I think there's a ton of ton of ton of criticism surrounding Patrick. I think there are a criticism surrounding Patrick. I think there are a criticism surrounding Patrick. I think there are a lot of questions. And I, lot of questions. And I, lot of questions. And I, here, I think, the here, I think, the here, I think, the guy was a guy was a guy was a political political political correspondent, and I correspondent, and I correspondent, and I thought: "Oh, you thought: "Oh, you thought: "Oh, you just don't know, you do just don't know, you do just don't know, you do n't hang out with n't hang out with n't hang out with criminal criminal criminal drug addicts." drug addicts." drug addicts." No. No. There are questions that I There are questions that I think we all think we all think we all expected to hear. An expected to hear. An important conversation was needed about important conversation was needed about mental health and the mental health and the mental health and the postpartum postpartum postpartum period. And it was a period. And it was a period. And it was a strange 14 minutes. strange 14 minutes. Yes, of course. First of all, Yes, of course. First of all, I think it was I think it was I think it was shorter than everyone shorter than everyone shorter than everyone expected. expected. expected. I learned a lot I learned a lot I learned a lot about that horse because I kept about that horse because I kept about that horse because I kept thinking they would thinking they would thinking they would come back to it. come back to it. come back to it. Yes, there was a story about a Yes, there was a story about a Yes, there was a story about a horse for those who don't horse for those who don't horse for those who don't know. "60 Minutes"...there know. "60 Minutes"...there know. "60 Minutes"...there were were were several stories on that program. They several stories on that program. They several stories on that program. They started with Patrick. It started with Patrick. It started with Patrick. It lasted 14 minutes, lasted 14 minutes, lasted 14 minutes, then we went to a then we went to a then we went to a story about a story about a story about a data center, a data center, a data center, a data center, something data center, something data center, something else, and we never else, and we never else, and we never got back to got back to got back to Patrick. They also Patrick. They also Patrick. They also didn't say they didn't say they didn't say they were going to release an were going to release an were going to release an extended clip or an extended clip or an extended clip or an extended interview.

extended interview. extended interview. They did it They did it They did it later. Hmm, that's later. Hmm, that's later. Hmm, that's not really it...I not really it...I not really it...I thought it was thought it was thought it was better. better. better. This was much This was much This was much better. It lasted better. It lasted better. It lasted almost 30 minutes and you almost 30 minutes and you almost 30 minutes and you just enjoyed just enjoyed just enjoyed hearing hearing hearing a lot more about the a lot more about the a lot more about the kids from him, yeah. So, I kids from him, yeah. So, I kids from him, yeah. So, I mean, it was... mean, it was... As far as As far as As far as empathy, I empathy, I empathy, I mean, I think mean, I think mean, I think they did they did they did a lot better. I a lot better. I a lot better. I guess I just don't guess I just don't guess I just don't understand why he understand why he understand why he did it because I... There's did it because I... There's so much so much public attention around him that public attention around him that public attention around him that if it was just to if it was just to talk about his talk about his kids, well, great. kids, well, great. kids, well, great. If it was to If it was to If it was to try to try to try to change change change public perception, I don't public perception, I don't public perception, I don't think it achieved think it achieved think it achieved that. And I don't know what that. And I don't know what that. And I don't know what it was or how "60 it was or how "60 it was or how "60 Minutes" convinced Minutes" convinced Minutes" convinced him to do it. What him to do it. What him to do it. What they eventually they eventually they eventually posted was posted was posted was like a like a like a pregnancy announcement. pregnancy announcement. pregnancy announcement. From his new From his new From his new wife. wife. wife. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, Dr. Rachel Yes, Dr. Rachel Yes, Dr. Rachel Dennis. The problem Dennis. The problem Dennis. The problem I had with this, and I I had with this, and I I had with this, and I think this is where think this is where think this is where people people people misunderstood what I was misunderstood what I was misunderstood what I was saying about this. saying about this. saying about this. Some that. Some Some that. Some Some that. Some agreed, some didn't, agreed, some didn't, agreed, some didn't, yes. yes. yes. But if you But if you But if you like a like a like a "60 Minutes" interview where you "60 Minutes" interview where you "60 Minutes" interview where you reveal everything, reveal everything, reveal everything, especially given the especially given the especially given the "60 Minutes" story, "60 Minutes" story, "60 Minutes" story, yes. yes.

In my opinion, you should be In my opinion, you should be asked everything, the entire asked everything, the entire asked everything, the entire scope of the case, every scope of the case, every scope of the case, every aspect. He was aspect. He was aspect. He was n't even asked at the n't even asked at the n't even asked at the most basic level, most basic level, most basic level, Patrick Clancy was Patrick Clancy was Patrick Clancy was n't even asked n't even asked n't even asked about the fact that this about the fact that this about the fact that this trial was trial was trial was overturned. First, overturned. First, overturned. First, what do you think about the fact that what do you think about the fact that what do you think about the fact that this was a this was a this was a trial that was overturned? trial that was overturned? trial that was overturned? And secondly, you And secondly, you And secondly, you might have to might have to might have to go through it all again. go through it all again. go through it all again. Yes. Yes. Yes. How do you generally How do you generally How do you generally process it and process it and process it and prepare for something prepare for something prepare for something like that? And since like that? And since , uh, there may have been , uh, there may have been , uh, there may have been criticism, questions about criticism, questions about criticism, questions about his testimony, about his testimony, about his testimony, about some of it, do some of it, do some of it, do you want to clarify that you want to clarify that , especially if you , especially if you , especially if you have to do it have to do it have to do it again? There you go, here's again? There you go, here's again? There you go, here's your scene. your scene. your scene. Please clarify this Please clarify this Please clarify this for us, and are for us, and are for us, and are you going to you going to you going to go back and go back and go back and do anything do anything differently if you differently if you differently if you have to have to have to testify again? testify again? testify again? You asked a You asked a You asked a critical question that I, critical question that I, like you, have been begging someone to like you, have been begging someone to like you, have been begging someone to ask, which ask, which ask, which again pertained to again pertained to again pertained to the idea of ​​postpartum the idea of ​​postpartum the idea of ​​postpartum psychosis. What we all psychosis. What we all psychosis. What we all know is know is know is that that that Lindsay suffered. Lindsay suffered. Lindsay suffered. She told She told She told people about how she was people about how she was people about how she was suffering. Patrick knew as well as suffering. Patrick knew as well as anyone else about what she had been through, the she had been through, the she had been through, the people she people she people she had seen, the medications had seen, the medications had seen, the medications she had been taking. And what she had been taking. And what she had been taking. And what you asked about, and you asked about, and you asked about, and I was hoping I was hoping I was hoping they would ask so many they would ask so many they would ask so many , is why, if , is why, if , is why, if she was in that she was in that she was in that condition, was she left condition, was she left condition, was she left alone with the children?

alone with the children? alone with the children? Well, I don't think Well, I don't think Well, I don't think anyone asked that. And anyone asked that. And anyone asked that. And I mean, we I mean, we I mean, we can look at the can look at the can look at the evidence of what evidence of what evidence of what Patrick said on the Patrick said on the Patrick said on the stand, and you know, he stand, and you know, he stand, and you know, he said something like, said something like, "Well, she had a "Well, she had a "Well, she had a good day, and good day, and good day, and maybe he really maybe he really maybe he really thought the kids were thought the kids were thought the kids were safe. safe. safe. There are resources, and there are a million There are resources, and there are a million There are resources, and there are a million things, but of course..." things, but of course..." things, but of course..." But there's a good topic to But there's a good topic to But there's a good topic to talk about talk about talk about . . . Yes. Yes. And and I know, I Yes. Yes. And and I know, I Yes. Yes. And and I know, I mean, Patrick mean, Patrick mean, Patrick said, "I want to said, "I want to said, "I want to talk about talk about talk about mental health and mental health and mental health and postpartum postpartum postpartum health for women." So health for women." So health for women." So I think this conversation I think this conversation I think this conversation is also a very valid is also a very valid is also a very valid question. For example, question. For example, question. For example, if there was even the if there was even the if there was even the slightest possibility that slightest possibility that slightest possibility that you were thinking about you were thinking about you were thinking about her and she her and she her and she was still in this was still in this was still in this state, did state, did state, did you you you ever discuss as ever discuss as ever discuss as a couple that it would be a couple that it would be a couple that it would be better for Lindsay, better for Lindsay, better for Lindsay, at least sometimes, not to at least sometimes, not to at least sometimes, not to be with the children without be with the children without be with the children without Patrick or someone Patrick or someone Patrick or someone else to be with else to be with else to be with her? I think this is such a her? I think this is such a her? I think this is such a fair question. fair question. fair question. Have another Have another Have another child with your new child with your new child with your new wife. Like, are you wife. Like, are you wife. Like, are you worried about her? worried about her? worried about her? Like, how will this affect Like, how will this affect Like, how will this affect you in the future? you in the future? you in the future? Yes. Yes. And they did Yes. Yes. And they did Yes. Yes. And they did n't ask anything about it. They did n't ask anything about it. They did n't ask anything about it. They did n't ask anything about it. And I would n't ask anything about it. And I would n't ask anything about it. And I would also like to also like to also like to hear from hear from hear from Patrick. And I know Patrick. And I know Patrick. And I know he said he did he said he did he said he did everything he could, but after everything he could, but after everything he could, but after finding out everything now, finding out everything now, finding out everything now, Patrick and Lindsay Patrick and Lindsay Patrick and Lindsay have filed civil have filed civil have filed civil lawsuits against the doctors lawsuits against the doctors lawsuits against the doctors who treated Lindsay.

who treated Lindsay. who treated Lindsay. Like, going Like, going Like, going back and reliving it all back and reliving it all back and reliving it all again during the again during the again during the trial, is there trial, is there trial, is there anything that Patrick would have anything that Patrick would have anything that Patrick would have done differently in done differently in done differently in those months, October, those months, October, those months, October, November, December, November, December, November, December, January, that led up January, that led up January, that led up to this time? I know this to this time? I know this to this time? I know this is a is a Monday morning quarterback talk, but if there Monday morning quarterback talk, but if there was anything else, was anything else, was anything else, could it help could it help could it help another family another family another family in the in the in the same situation? And that same situation? And that same situation? And that wasn't wasn't wasn't delivered either. delivered either. delivered either. You know, one of my You know, one of my You know, one of my questions is, questions is, questions is, one of the things one of the things one of the things I always I always I always point out when people point out when people point out when people say, "Oh, you know, say, "Oh, you know, say, "Oh, you know, she admitted it, she admitted it, she admitted it, right?" And I say, "Well, right?" And I say, "Well, right?" And I say, "Well, she admits it at the she admits it at the she admits it at the first first first trial. She says that's what trial. She says that's what trial. She says that's what happened." And I happened." And I happened." And I thought, "And then there are these thought, "And then there are these thought, "And then there are these lawsuits. What lawsuits. What lawsuits. What happens to them if happens to them if happens to them if we go to we go to we go to another another another lawsuit and she says she didn't lawsuit and she says she didn't do it at all?" I don't know. The do it at all?" I don't know. The only thing I can only thing I can only thing I can look at from a look at from a look at from a legal perspective legal perspective legal perspective is that these two is that these two is that these two trials are trials are trials are in civil court and the in civil court and the in civil court and the others are in criminal others are in criminal others are in criminal court, and these are separate court, and these are separate court, and these are separate trials. But when trials. But when trials. But when people ask if people ask if people ask if she admitted it, I've she admitted it, I've she admitted it, I've read civil read civil read civil lawsuits. I read lawsuits. I read Lindsay's civil lawsuit. Yes, in this Lindsay's civil lawsuit. Yes, in this lawsuit she admits lawsuit she admits lawsuit she admits that she took their lives that she took their lives that she took their lives due to postpartum due to postpartum due to postpartum psychosis. That's absolutely psychosis. That's absolutely psychosis. That's absolutely true. And they also true. And they also true. And they also agreed with the facts of agreed with the facts of agreed with the facts of this this this trial, which was the same thing trial, which was the same thing trial, which was the same thing . So for everyone . So for everyone . So for everyone who was like, "Oh my God who was like, "Oh my God , yeah, she couldn't , yeah, she couldn't , yeah, she couldn't do that. She do that. She do that. She couldn't couldn't couldn't do that." There is do that." There is do that." There is documentation.

documentation. documentation. Yes, and this is where I Yes, and this is where I Yes, and this is where I still have a hard time, even in the still have a hard time, even in the still have a hard time, even in the criminal criminal criminal process. I understand that process. I understand that process. I understand that they couldn't they couldn't they couldn't separate it. So, separate it. So, separate it. So, part of my brain is part of my brain is part of my brain is like, "Oh, okay." like, "Oh, okay." like, "Oh, okay." Perhaps this is the best Perhaps this is the best Perhaps this is the best solution if it solution if it solution if it was not possible to separate the was not possible to separate the was not possible to separate the trials. You trials. You trials. You still have a civil still have a civil still have a civil lawsuit where you say, "That's lawsuit where you say, "That's lawsuit where you say, "That's right, right, right, you did it." you did it." you did it." But they asked the But they asked the But they asked the court during this that there were court during this that there were court during this that there were ongoing civil ongoing civil ongoing civil lawsuits. So this was lawsuits. So this was lawsuits. So this was known in the known in the known in the trial, but they didn't trial, but they didn't trial, but they didn't go into detail. go into detail. go into detail. Right. So now Right. So now Right. So now it's like, "Okay, first of all it's like, "Okay, first of all , we need to , we need to , we need to get to November 2nd. get to November 2nd. get to November 2nd. This... This... This... Uh... Uh... Uh... we need to know where we need to know where we need to know where this is going to lead." So, this is going to lead." So, this is going to lead." So, we thought, you know, we thought, you know, we thought, you know, this would be an important this would be an important this would be an important week, and it week, and it week, and it was. But now, when the was. But now, when the was. But now, when the actual decisions are being made actual decisions are being made actual decisions are being made , the actual , the actual , the actual changes, November 2nd. And changes, November 2nd. And changes, November 2nd. And we will obviously be we will obviously be we will obviously be monitoring this. Will there monitoring this. Will there monitoring this. Will there be a be a be a retrial, and will the retrial, and will the same charges be brought? I same charges be brought? I would tell you would tell you would tell you today, based on today, based on today, based on how the prosecutor how the prosecutor how the prosecutor reacted to the reacted to the reacted to the cancellation of the cancellation of the cancellation of the trial, that they will trial, that they will trial, that they will definitely definitely definitely continue the continue the continue the trial with the same trial with the same charges. I would charges. I would say they were say they were say they were pretty adamant, and pretty adamant, and pretty adamant, and I would say, I would say, I would say, categorical and categorical and categorical and a little angry a little angry a little angry after the trial was canceled, after the trial was canceled, saying that these children saying that these children deserve this and deserve this and deserve this and that anyone who that anyone who that anyone who kills their children, kills their children, kills their children, we will prosecute we will prosecute we will prosecute to the fullest extent. So to the fullest extent. So to the fullest extent. So I would say they will I would say they will I would say they will probably continue probably continue probably continue with the same arguments with the same arguments with the same arguments and the same and the same and the same charges of charges of charges of first first first degree murder. But the prosecutor degree murder. But the prosecutor degree murder. But the prosecutor didn't didn't didn't say that today. They say that today. They say that today. They are going to wait are going to wait are going to wait and see what and see what and see what happens, happens, happens, see what comes out see what comes out see what comes out of these petitions, and of these petitions, and of these petitions, and then move on.

then move on. then move on. So what's next? So what's next? So what's next? Let's wait and see. Let's wait and see. Let's wait and see. Let's wait and see. Let's wait and see. Let's wait and see. I'm glad we were able to I'm glad we were able to I'm glad we were able to talk about this and talk about this and talk about this and wanted to sit down and just wanted to sit down and just wanted to sit down and just talk about everything. talk about everything. talk about everything. Um, and of course, we Um, and of course, we Um, and of course, we 'll keep you updated 'll keep you updated 'll keep you updated , because , because a lot of money is invested in this, and for good a lot of money is invested in this, and for good reason. So, Crime reason. So, Crime reason. So, Crime Junkies, be sure to Junkies, be sure to Junkies, be sure to subscribe and subscribe and subscribe and click the click the click the bell icon to stay up to bell icon to stay up to bell icon to stay up to date on the Lindsay date on the Lindsay date on the Lindsay Clancy case and other cases Clancy case and other cases Clancy case and other cases and news and news and news our our our team covers. Crime Junkie is an team covers. Crime Junkie is an team covers. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. Audiochuck production. Audiochuck production. I think Chuck would approve.